Abortion - States Rights

[dairygirl4u2c]

ty

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1302560726' post='2227600']
ty
[/quote]

would you give more clarification on your question.
Ideal with regards to what?

Ideal in a perfect world? Ideal within the Constitution of the United States?

[Groo the Wanderer]

States rights win over federal rights, IF our govt actually followed the Constitution. Then again, almost all federal agencies, departments, and such would be disbanded.


Ideal abortion situation? It is not outlawed because there is no need to do so - everyone knows it is wrong and would neither seek nor perform one. Then again, in an ideal world, there is no need for ANY law since everyone would follow the natural law written on one's heart by God.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304952001' post='2239045']
States rights win over federal rights, IF our govt actually followed the Constitution. Then again, almost all federal agencies, departments, and such would be disbanded.


Ideal abortion situation? It is not outlawed because there is no need to do so - everyone knows it is wrong and would neither seek nor perform one. Then again, in an ideal world, there is no need for ANY law since everyone would follow the natural law written on one's heart by God.
[/quote]


Well I wasn't thinking of a World with out a Fall.

I completly agree with you about states rights... without reservation. However, I'd like to see a constitutional amendment giving legal status at conception. If we can't get that I'd like to see the issue handled constitutionally and returned to the States, where the fight could be fought on a State by State basis.

Those are within our Constitution, neither do I think are the Best solution.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Term limits. Would fix a lot of the carpola in our govt.

Of course getting Catholics to vote like Catholics would be a good start too....we have the largest voting bloc, demographically, in the US. It is a scandal that we do not shape the government to conform to Christ with our votes...




DG said 'Ideal' so I went for the true ideal

Edited May 9, 2011 by Groo the Wanderer

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304952001' post='2239045']
States rights win over federal rights, IF our govt actually followed the Constitution. Then again, almost all federal agencies, departments, and such would be disbanded.[/quote]

You're correct, this is what the constitution in theory requires. However we seem quite removed from that tradition, which I'd like to bring back. You're correct to say that almost all federal agencies, departments, and such would be disbanded.


[quote]Ideal abortion situation? It is not outlawed because there is no need to do so - everyone knows it is wrong and would neither seek nor perform one. Then again, in an ideal world, there is no need for ANY law since everyone would follow the natural law written on one's heart by God.
[/quote]

I think that the question is in reference to the idea legal situation.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304952562' post='2239056']
Term limits. Would fix a lot of the carpola in our govt.[/quote]

I'm not sure that it would to be honest.

[quote]Of course getting Catholics to vote like Catholics would be a good start too....we have the largest voting bloc, demographically, in the US. It is a scandal that we do not shape the government to conform to Christ with our votes...
[/quote]

This would be great but then again maybe not. I know many Catholics that go to mass every sunday and vote but their votes are for candidates that support abortion. Sure they probably don't tell their father of confession that they are voting as such but lets face it, most people that attend whatever religious institution do not take it seriously. I had a conversation not long ago with an Irish Catholic in Stillwater Minnesota and he told me that he went to mass every sunday. That he took communion [so I assumed that he gave confession] and that he felt that abortion is not wrong. I didn't oppose him because I knew him well enough to know that he wasn't interested in my opinion.

Additionally, I think that many religious groups alienate other religious groups [Catholics to Muslims, Evangelicals to Catholics, etc] with their "they don't have the truth" argument and do not realize that if they got together and voted in a particular direction, they would have a better chance of boosting the moral of their congregants and having a real change. Many would say, "Muslims and Catholics are opposites", and I say, "oh really? Well both are against abortion and are righting the same battle in passing laws that prohibit it".

[quote]DG said 'Ideal' so I went for the true ideal
[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304954155' post='2239075']
You're correct, this is what the constitution in theory requires. However we seem quite removed from that tradition, which I'd like to bring back. You're correct to say that almost all federal agencies, departments, and such would be disbanded.




I think that the question is in reference to the idea legal situation.



I'm not sure that it would to be honest.



This would be great but then again maybe not. I know many Catholics that go to mass every sunday and vote but their votes are for candidates that support abortion. Sure they probably don't tell their father of confession that they are voting as such but lets face it, most people that attend whatever religious institution do not take it seriously. I had a conversation not long ago with an Irish Catholic in Stillwater Minnesota and he told me that he went to mass every sunday. That he took communion [so I assumed that he gave confession] and that he felt that abortion is not wrong. I didn't oppose him because I knew him well enough to know that he wasn't interested in my opinion.

Additionally, I think that many religious groups alienate other religious groups [Catholics to Muslims, Evangelicals to Catholics, etc] with their "they don't have the truth" argument and do not realize that if they got together and voted in a particular direction, they would have a better chance of boosting the moral of their congregants and having a real change. Many would say, "Muslims and Catholics are opposites", and I say, "oh really? Well both are against abortion and are righting the same battle in passing laws that prohibit it".


[/quote]


Islam does not universally condemn abortion, I don't mean muslims ( as we all know all Catholics don't either) but Islam. The lack of a unified theology is a probelm in that regard.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304954935' post='2239082']
Islam does not universally condemn abortion, I don't mean muslims ( as we all know all Catholics don't either) but Islam. The lack of a unified theology is a probelm in that regard.
[/quote]

That's not true, every single one of the Islamic Schools of Thought condemn abortion.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304981809' post='2239317']
That's not true, every single one of the Islamic Schools of Thought condemn abortion.
[/quote]


That is not true, in fact a major confrence held in the UAE about 10 years ago concluded that abortion of girls was okay,( the fact that this smacks of the girl infanticied that Mohammed ended did not seemto matter to them) also that cloning men was okay but not women, the confrence was on cloning but abortion always comes up in such debates, becuase it comes with the terrritory.
.

[Don John of Austria]

Saudi arabia for example allows abortion to protect the "mental health" of the mother, whichis code for, when ever you really really want one. Saudi is a theocratic monarchy, and abortionis perfectly viable option there. Kuwait, Qatar and Jordan also allow it for " mental health" reasons, but also because of " fetal impairment".

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304982587' post='2239322']
That is not true, in fact a major confrence held in the UAE about 10 years ago concluded that abortion of girls was okay,( the fact that this smacks of the girl infanticied that Mohammed ended did not seemto matter to them) also that cloning men was okay but not women, the confrence was on cloning but abortion always comes up in such debates, becuase it comes with the terrritory.
.
[/quote]

I don't care what some conference in the UAE said, I'm telling you what the Islamic Schools of Thought say, which are much more authoritative. As for the laws in Saudi Arabia, you should get your facts correct:

[quote]Induced abortion is generally illegal in Saudi Arabia under non-codified principles of Islamic law. A person who performs an illegal abortion is subject to the payment of blood money to the relatives of the aborted foetus. However, under article 24 of the Rules of Implementation for Regulations of the Practice of Medicine and Dentistry, Ministerial Resolution No. 218/17/L of 26 June 1989, an abortion may be performed to save the pregnant woman’s life, and if the pregnancy is less than four months old and it is proven beyond doubt that continued pregnancy gravely endangers the mother’s health. Written consent of the patient and her husband or guardian is required.<br itxtNodeId="349"><br itxtNodeId="348">Article 24 is based on Resolution No. 140 by the Committee of Senior Ulema, which is reproduced in the above Rules and provides that a pregnancy cannot be aborted at any stage except when legally (according to Islamic Laws) justified and within very narrow limitations.<br itxtNodeId="347"><br itxtNodeId="346">Resolution No. 140 refers to three stages of pregnancy. Within the first 40 days of pregnancy, an abortion may be allowed if it is deemed necessary to accomplish a legal benefit or to prevent an expected harm. It is not allowed, however, for fear of hardship in child upbringing or inability to secure the cost of living, education, or future, or if the parents decide that they have enough children. At the embryo stage, an abortion is not allowed unless an approved medical committee decides that continuation of the pregnancy endangers the woman’s safety and could possibly lead to her death, and if all means to eliminate the danger have been exhausted. After four months of pregnancy, abortion is not allowed unless a panel of approved specialists states that continuation of the pregnancy will cause the woman’s death and all means to eliminate the danger have been exhausted. Resolution No. 140 provides that under these conditions, abortion is allowed “to avoid the gravest of two dangers and to accomplish the better of two benefits”.[/quote]


And I should remind you that just because a nation that is all Muslim allows for abortion doesn't make it part of Islam. Italy is primarily Roman Catholic, yet they allow abortion much more freely then Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get some of their laws from Islam, but not all of them. We shouldn't make assumptions, rather we should find out what the scholars say.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304982587' post='2239322']
That is not true, in fact a major confrence held in the UAE about 10 years ago concluded that abortion of girls was okay,( the fact that this smacks of the girl infanticied that Mohammed ended did not seemto matter to them) also that cloning men was okay but not women, the confrence was on cloning but abortion always comes up in such debates, becuase it comes with the terrritory.
.
[/quote]

I don't care what some conference in the UAE said, I'm telling you what the Islamic Schools of Thought say, which are much more authoritative. As for the laws in Saudi Arabia, you should get your facts correct:

[quote]Induced abortion is generally illegal in Saudi Arabia under non-codified principles of Islamic law. A person who performs an illegal abortion is subject to the payment of blood money to the relatives of the aborted foetus. However, under article 24 of the Rules of Implementation for Regulations of the Practice of Medicine and Dentistry, Ministerial Resolution No. 218/17/L of 26 June 1989, an abortion may be performed to save the pregnant woman’s life, and if the pregnancy is less than four months old and it is proven beyond doubt that continued pregnancy gravely endangers the mother’s health. Written consent of the patient and her husband or guardian is required.<br itxtNodeId="349"><br itxtNodeId="348">Article 24 is based on Resolution No. 140 by the Committee of Senior Ulema, which is reproduced in the above Rules and provides that a pregnancy cannot be aborted at any stage except when legally (according to Islamic Laws) justified and within very narrow limitations.<br itxtNodeId="347"><br itxtNodeId="346">Resolution No. 140 refers to three stages of pregnancy. Within the first 40 days of pregnancy, an abortion may be allowed if it is deemed necessary to accomplish a legal benefit or to prevent an expected harm. It is not allowed, however, for fear of hardship in child upbringing or inability to secure the cost of living, education, or future, or if the parents decide that they have enough children. At the embryo stage, an abortion is not allowed unless an approved medical committee decides that continuation of the pregnancy endangers the woman’s safety and could possibly lead to her death, and if all means to eliminate the danger have been exhausted. After four months of pregnancy, abortion is not allowed unless a panel of approved specialists states that continuation of the pregnancy will cause the woman’s death and all means to eliminate the danger have been exhausted. Resolution No. 140 provides that under these conditions, abortion is allowed “to avoid the gravest of two dangers and to accomplish the better of two benefits”.[/quote]


And I should remind you that just because a nation that is all Muslim allows for abortion doesn't make it part of Islam. Italy is primarily Roman Catholic, yet they allow abortion much more freely then Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get some of their laws from Islam, but not all of them. We shouldn't make assumptions, rather we should find out what the scholars say.

[Amppax]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1305017330' post='2239582']
And I should remind you that just because a nation that is all Muslim allows for abortion doesn't make it part of Islam. Italy is primarily Roman Catholic, yet they allow abortion much more freely then Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get some of their laws from Islam, but not all of them. We shouldn't make assumptions, rather we should find out what the scholars say.
[/quote]

that really isn't a good analogy, Italy is a secular European nation, I don't think that anyone would argue that Saudi Arabia is secular at all.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Amppax

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1305017322' post='2239581']
I don't care what some conference in the UAE said, I'm telling you what the Islamic Schools of Thought say, which are much more authoritative. As for the laws in Saudi Arabia, you should get your facts correct:




And I should remind you that just because a nation that is all Muslim allows for abortion doesn't make it part of Islam. Italy is primarily Roman Catholic, yet they allow abortion much more freely then Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia might get some of their laws from Islam, but not all of them. We shouldn't make assumptions, rather we should find out what the scholars say.
[/quote]


They are not analgous... italy is not run by Catholic Law, it is more like if Vatican City allowed abortion.

And what you posted was hardly a refutation, for the first 40 days "Within the first 40 days of pregnancy, an abortion may be allowed if it is deemed necessary to [i]accomplish a legal benefit [/i]or to prevent an expected harm" .. [i]A legal benifit[/i], that isn't even the womens mental health...it is much much less demanding.

That they progressively restrict abortion in later stages is not a justification for the statement that [i]Islam [/i] condemns abortion. Unless youare saying that Saudi Arabia, Guardianof the Holy City's, is not Keeping Isamic law.


I advise you not to say that there.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305059560' post='2239781']
that really isn't a good analogy, Italy is a secular European nation, I don't think that anyone would argue that Saudi Arabia is secular at all.
[/quote]

Well to say that Saudi Arabia has a pure Islamic Law and that they speak for everyone is also not a good source to understanding Islamic Law.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305060966' post='2239791']
They are not analgous... italy is not run by Catholic Law, it is more like if Vatican City allowed abortion.[/quote]

They are in the sense that The Saudis do not represent all of Islamic Law, or even practice the particular school of thought for which they proclaim purely.

[quote]And what you posted was hardly a refutation, for the first 40 days "Within the first 40 days of pregnancy, an abortion may be allowed if it is deemed necessary to [i]accomplish a legal benefit [/i]or to prevent an expected harm" .. [i]A legal benifit[/i], that isn't even the womens mental health...it is much much less demanding.
[/quote]

It was a refutation because you severely distorted what their laws are regarding abortion.

[quote]That they progressively restrict abortion in later stages is not a justification for the statement that [i]Islam [/i] condemns abortion. Unless youare saying that Saudi Arabia, Guardianof the Holy City's, is not Keeping Isamic law.
[/quote]

Your point was that abortion is not prohibited in Islam and you tried to point to the Saudi Royals are you example. Sorry but read what the Islamic Schools of thought say, not what individuals might chose to do. The Saudi Royals do not keep with Islamic Law. IE: Islamic Law prohibits the profiting from income that comes from usury, yet the Saudi Royals have investments in many companies that profit from usury.

[quote]I advise you not to say that there.
[/quote]

I advise you to study the Islamic Schools of Thought and see what the scholars have to say, rather then what the Saudi Royals might say and not distort Saudi Law.