College Decisions

[Papist]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]I assume you selected ND and FUS b/c they are Catholic.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]A faithful Catholic college provides an open and healthy environment for serious consideration of ideas without the tyranny of harassment, political correctness or enforced relativism.The same cannot be said for many secular institutions. A Catholic college must have a vibrant Catholic culture on campus that respects Catholic moral teaching and offers numerous opportunities for spiritual development. Although every campus varies, differences from the typical secularized Catholic campus might include amore active Catholic campus ministry, respect for Catholic values in areas including residential life and campus programs, active pro-life and social justice efforts, community outreach programs, Catholic study groups, etc.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Here's some questions to ask and ponder:[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]1. Did the president make the public profession of faith and take the oath of fidelity?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]2. Is the majority of the board of trustees Catholic?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]3. Is the majority of the faculty Catholic?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]4. Do you publicly require all Catholic theology professors to have the mandatum?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]5. Did all Catholic theology professors take the oath of fidelity?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]6. Do you provide daily Mass and posted times (at least weekly) for individual confession?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]7. Do you exclude advocates of abortion, euthanasia, or cloning as commencement speakersor recipients of honorary degrees?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]8. Do you exclude sponsoring pro-abortion campus groups?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]9. Do you exclude coed dorms?[/size][/font]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]10. Doyour student health services exclude referrals to abortion businesses?[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]The College/University[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]President's Oath - Canon 833 - The president of a Catholic university is personally bound to make a profession of faith, according to the formula approved by the Apostolic See, in the presence of the chancellor or diocesan bishop or a delegate at the beginning of the term of office.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]The Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity, "Acta Apostolicae Sedis" 1989. The obligation of aspecial oath of fidelity has been extended to presidents of Catholic Universities. [/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Catholic Board - To the extent possible, the majority of the board of trustees should beCatholics committed to the Church[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Catholic Faculty - The university should strive to recruit and appoint Catholics as professors so that, to the extent possible, those committed to the witness of the faith will constitute a majority of the faculty.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Mandatum Required- Canon 812 - It is necessary that Catholic theologians have a mandatum from the diocesan bishop.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Pope John Paul II (to American bishops, 2004) - By their very nature, Catholic colleges and universities are called to offer an institutional witness of fidelity to Christ and to his word as it comes to us from the Church, a public witness expressed in the canonical requirement of the mandatum. Both the university and the bishops, aware of the contributions made by theologians to Church and academy, have a right to expect them to present authentic Catholic teaching. Catholic professors of the theological disciplines have a corresponding duty to be faithful to the Church's magisterium as the authoritative interpreter of sacred Scripture and sacred Tradition. Catholic students have a right to receive from a university instruction in authentic Catholic doctrine and practice, especially from theologians.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]MandatumText - I hereby declare my role and responsibility as a teacher of a theological discipline within the full communion of the Church. As a teacher of a theological discipline, therefore, I am committed to teach authentic Catholic doctrine and to refrain from putting forth as Catholic teaching anything contrary to the Church's magisterium. If a particular professor lacks a mandatumand continues to teach a theological discipline, the university must determine what further action may be taken in accordance with its own mission and statutes.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Theologians' Oath - Canon 833 - Catholic theologians are personally bound to make a profession of faith, according to the formula approved by the Apostolic See, in the presence of the university president if he is a priest, or the diocesan bishop or a delegate, at the beginning of their term of office. The Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity, "Acta Apostolicae Sedis" 1989. The obligation of a special oath of fidelity has been extended to Catholic theology professors.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Campus Culture[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Mass and Confession - Catholic students have a right to be provided with opportunities to practice the faith through participation in Mass, the sacraments, religious devotions, and other authentic forms of Catholic spirituality. The university shall make provision for effective campus ministry programs, including the celebration of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist and penance, other liturgical celebrations, and opportunities for prayer and spiritual reflection.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Speakers Vetted - The U.S. Bishops' 2004 "Catholics in Political Life". Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms that would suggest support for their actions.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Unobjectionable Clubs - It is important for Catholic universities to implement in practical terms their commitment to the essential elements of Catholic identity, including activities of officially recognized student and faculty organizations and associations.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]No CoedDorms - It is important for Catholic universities to implement in practical terms their commitment to the essential elements of Catholic identity,including the commitment to create a campus culture and environment that is expressive and supportive of a Catholic way of life.[/size][/font]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Health Services Okay - It is important for Catholic universities to implement in practical terms their commitment to the essential elements of Catholic identity, including the commitment to provide health care in conformity with the Church's ethical and religious teaching and directives. [/size][/font]

Edited April 7, 2011 by Papist

[Maggyie]

Your experience at a school is usually what you make of it. There are great academics at ND but there are great academics at FUS too (their nursing program for instance is amesome). There are culture "issues" at ND (well-publicized) but there are culture issues at FUS too (you wouldn't believe the percentage of porn on the desktops). You are going to find this at every school, so in the balance, I would say take ND. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to come out of school with as little debt as possible. Huge debt can strangle your vocation, whether it is marriage or priesthood or religious life. I know it's four years away but graduation day will come faster than you think and you do NOT want to be kicking yourself and trying to console yourself by saying, "well it was God's will that I come here so it must be God's will that I have to deal with five figures of debt."

[Lilllabettt]

South Bend is nothing to write home about, but the air quality is better.

There is partying in Steubie land and not a small amount of sexual immorality. Notre Dame the same. But it is what you make of it - there are tons of devout people at each. The (avowedly) secular University I attended has a reputation as the "STD capital" of the USA - and there were some off people I ran into. But when I applied myself to the problem, I found Muslim roommates who rose at sunrise for morning prayer. Totally different experience.

It depends what you want to study. Yeah, if you want to do nursing, go Steubie, because I don't think ND even HAS a nursing program. They don't have a med school either. For most things, ND is better academically. If you want to go to grad school, you should go to ND. And if its cheaper for you, that is huge too.

When I went back to school I considered transferring to FUS - but frankly, it scared me, money wise. Debt for college is normal, but 40 grand for a youth ministry degree??? I know marriages that have actually broken up because the combined FUS student debt + unmarketability of their degrees was unmanageable. A friend of mine wants to enter the convent but is saddled with 70,000 combined undergrad/grad. She told me they make you sign a paper saying that if you can't make money off your degree, you won't sue. That just really scared me.

I shared a house in DC with a chick right out of ND; she went to the architecture school and was able to get a well-paying job with a snap of her fingers. She does have a debt load she worries about but overall, one thing about ND is they do give financial aid. I applied for grad school at Notre Dame, but it turns out I'll be going with a fancier program - with a higher price tag. Looking at the numbers, I have some regret - a free graduate degree is NICE. Having lower debt can really set you up to take advantage of opportunities it the future.

[Amppax]

Thank you everybody for your advice and information, I learned a lot. I'm still praying very hard about this decision. Thank you for all your prayers and support.

[MissScripture]

NORTH DAKOTA!

Oh...


Wait...


That's not the ND you meant? Oh.

[Amppax]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1302224773' post='2226789']
NORTH DAKOTA!

Oh...


Wait...


That's not the ND you meant? Oh.
[/quote]

Haha, you just made my day, that's pretty funny[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]

[the 13th papist]

As a FUS grad, who is currently in alot of debt as he forever continues his education, I think you might want to lean towards ND. I have found it difficult to be taken seriously as an academic with a degree from FUS, so if you're planning on grad. school, ND is the better choice. Like many others have written, your college is experience is mostly what you make of it. You can debouch yourself in Steubenville just as you can find a solid, faithful Catholic community at ND. I have friends who went to secular or nominally Catholic colleges who founds activities and groups with other orthodox-minded people. Put simply, FUS isn't a bed of roses, and ND is completely pagan. Also, because you are going into the history field, you will more than likely encounter fewer issues as regard orthodoxy in your studies than somebody studying theology. Finally, I would advise you to examine your spiritual life and answer this question honestly: "Do I have the strength of faith and personality to continue growing in my relationship with Christ, even if it is not easy?" If you can answer in the affirmative, then you can really go to any school.

[Groo the Wanderer]

FUS FTW!!

ND is stinky right now on being CINO (Catholic in name only).

If you pick ND, you have to promise to give 7 kinds of heck to the teachers and administrators who are taking the university away from Our Lady and straight to hell.

[AudreyGrace]

A lot of people bring up the money issue for FUS, but compared to the other schools I've gotten into, it's really not bad at all (better than some, even.) LeMoyne offered me a $44,000 scholarship, Clarkson offered like 30 or 40k, and Hartwick offered $88,000. Even with these three packages, Franciscan is still cheaper full price with fees and all. Plus, I still need to hear about my financial aid package from them. College is what you make it, and if you prove yourself academically excellent, then school names don't matter all that much At least that's what my guidance counselor told me.


So... I'd say FUS

[4588686]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1302296272' post='2226955']
College is what you make it, and if you prove yourself academically excellent, then school names don't matter all that much At least that's what my guidance counselor told me.

[/quote]

There is some truth to this. Some.

If have an excellent academic record, score well on whatever standardized test you have to take (GRE, LSAT, MCAT whatever) and do good reaserch (Like an Honor's Thesis) that you can send to the graduate, law, med whatever school you hope to get too, then you will probably be a strong cannidate.

The problem is that there are lots and lots of strong cannidates out there. The value of even an undergraduate degree is only decreasing in the long term and the value of a graduate/professional degree is increasing.

So let's say that you go to FUS and have a 4.0 GPA, a good undergraduate thesis, and a strong GRE score. That's great. Unfortunately if the board has one space left and they have to choose between you and somebody who has a 4.0 at Berkely (of course, a 4.0 at Berkely is going to be worth a lot more than a 4.0 at FUS), a good undergraduate thesis, and a strong GRE score, who do you think they are going to pick?

Berkely is a more academically rigorous school. Chances are better that if you go to Berkely you are going to get your reccomendation letters written by scholars who are more established and known in their fields.

It's not the only factor. To a some extent the point of an undergraduate degree is just to prove that you can keep yourself focused and incheck for four years and maintain a steady work ethic. But generally speaking what that really means is that if you go to an unrecognized school you are not out of the running. You are still at something of a disadvantage.

Don't forget that formal requirments are not the whole story. You also have to network. It's not just what you do but also who you know.

[4588686]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1302268981' post='2226881']
FUS FTW!!

ND is stinky right now on being CINO (Catholic in name only).

If you pick ND, you have to promise to give 7 kinds of heck to the teachers and administrators who are taking the university away from Our Lady and straight to hell.
[/quote]

ND is not Catholic in name only. There are lot's of devout Catholic students there. A personal friend of mine, who got expelled from his evangelical school for converting to Catholicism, is super Orthodox and goes there.



Even if half the student body was composed of heathens. You are not going to interact with half the school. You are not going to interact with 1/4th of the school. You're going to have a normal sized group of friends. You will not have any problem finding a network of highly Catholic kids at ND.

Amppax.

If you do decide to go to ND shoot me a PM and I will check with my friend who's there. He's brilliant and super-orthodox. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you find plenty of other bright, orthodox Catholic circles to hang in.

[4588686]

I also know a kid who's brilliant. He went to NCSSM (a public school for gifted kids) and then, like most NCSSM kids, went to UNC. He got kicked out from here because he put most of his energy into a small buisness rather than school. He went to ECU. A school in my home town that is not exactly known for it's academics. He was exceptionally smart. So he said whatever and just did well at ECU and took the LSAT. He kicked the poo out of the LSAT and scored in like the top percentile or something. He got a full ride to Columbia Law (He also got a full ride to UNC's Law school. He was understandably still somewhat bitter and turned them down. Not to mention that Columbia is just plain a better school).

So there are lot's of factors. If you want to be a history major specializing in ante bellum southern history you'd probably pick some place like UNC over what would normally be a better school like Stanford. But unless you know for sure (and you probably don't because most freshmen change their minds) that you want to study some nitch subject or you know for sure that you can blow the lid off the standardized tests you are, all things being equal, always going to be at an advantage going to a better school. In my experience.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1302268981' post='2226881']
FUS FTW!!

ND is stinky right now on being CINO (Catholic in name only).

If you pick ND, you have to promise to give 7 kinds of heck to the teachers and administrators who are taking the university away from Our Lady and straight to hell.
[/quote]
I think you have an inaccurate picture of what Catholic life is like at Notre Dame. You should check out my post above for a glimpse.
[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1302297619' post='2226961']
Amppax.

If you do decide to go to ND shoot me a PM and I will check with my friend who's there. He's brilliant and super-orthodox. I'm sure he'd be happy to help you find plenty of other bright, orthodox Catholic circles to hang in.
[/quote]
I will gladly do the same, I graduated last year and still have many friends there.

[Amppax]

Thank's Hasan, you've given me a ton of great information. Also, thank you everyone else, you all have been great. Another question (not too far off of the topic) but does anyone have experience with FUS's Honors Program? The whole idea of a Great Books program sounds really interesting to me (I'm a complete bookworm) and compared to most Great Books programs that I know of, it is not an exclusive major, allowing you to actually come out with a major. Has anyone done this, or know someone who has, and if so, what do you have to say about it.

And darn, I was just up at ND for the weekend, if I had started this thread last week, I could probably seen more of what I wanted when I was there. Oh well.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Amppax

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1302297330' post='2226959']

Don't forget that formal requirments are not the whole story. You also have to network. It's not just what you do but also who you know.
[/quote]

This is very true. If you are looking to be in front-line ministry there is probably no better place to network than FUS. Bar none the contacts you would make would be incredible. If the goal is higher-level academics, not so much.