The Celebration Of Mass

[Debra Little]

Something bothers me and I can't get it off my mind. When I go to Mass Father calls our
celebration the Mass of the Eucharist. This means thanksgiving but thanksgiving is only
part of it. What are we thankful for? The Body and Blood of our Lord shed for us and for
all His graces and blessings.

it seems to me that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been hidden or is of secondary
importance when it's the crux of the whole Mass. We wouldn't be God's children
or receive His graces and blessings if it were not for that.

I know there are a lot of little instances like this and I hear them. It seems to
me that the faithful, some of them anyway, even some priests have forgotten
what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is all about.

I try not to let these little things bother me but where does it stop. First this, then that,
then pretty soon everything is changed and we wonder how it happened. From not
being faithful in the little things.

[Papist]

I'd humbly approach the priest and simply ask him what he means. And that you understand it this way. To be honest, I am confused what exactly what the priest said. Guard against approaching him with attitude that you are right and he is wrong.

Keep in mind, The word "Eucharist" means "Thanksgiving."

[Chamomile]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1301326974' post='2223916']
Something bothers me and I can't get it off my mind. When I go to Mass Father calls our
celebration the Mass of the Eucharist. This means thanksgiving but thanksgiving is only
part of it. What are we thankful for? The Body and Blood of our Lord shed for us and for
all His graces and blessings.

it seems to me that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been hidden or is of secondary
importance when it's the crux of the whole Mass. We wouldn't be God's children
or receive His graces and blessings if it were not for that.

I know there are a lot of little instances like this and I hear them. It seems to
me that the faithful, some of them anyway, even some priests have forgotten
what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is all about.

I try not to let these little things bother me but where does it stop. First this, then that,
then pretty soon everything is changed and we wonder how it happened. From not
being faithful in the little things.
[/quote]



This is probably true of every generation of Catholics... that "the faithful, some of them anyway, even some priests have forgotten what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is all about." I have seen many instances of this and struggle constantly with trying to stay focused on Our Lord in the Eucharist while less-than-reverent things happen. But I'm sure that there hasn't been a time in Church history where every single person at every single Mass was absolutely reverent and attentive and really knew what was going on at the Mass. We're just too human. For now, personally, I try to go to parishes where I know the people and priests are very concerned with reverence and loving worship of God.

I agree with Papist that you should bring up your concerns with the priest. Maybe he didn't have a good formation in seminary, or maybe he doesn't even notice that what he's doing might confuse his flock. I would also suggest that you act in a manner at Mass that speaks to others about how holy it is (I'm not saying you don't already!) and maybe help out with some catechesis at the parish, if that's something you're capable of doing.

And above all, pray for the return of reverence in the Mass and all areas of Catholic devotion, especially before the Blessed Sacrament

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1301340928' post='2223966']
This is probably true of every generation of Catholics... that "the faithful, some of them anyway, even some priests have forgotten what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is all about." I have seen many instances of this and struggle constantly with trying to stay focused on Our Lord in the Eucharist while less-than-reverent things happen. But I'm sure that there hasn't been a time in Church history where every single person at every single Mass was absolutely reverent and attentive and really knew what was going on at the Mass. We're just too human. For now, personally, I try to go to parishes where I know the people and priests are very concerned with reverence and loving worship of God.

I agree with Papist that you should bring up your concerns with the priest. Maybe he didn't have a good formation in seminary, or maybe he doesn't even notice that what he's doing might confuse his flock. I would also suggest that you act in a manner at Mass that speaks to others about how holy it is (I'm not saying you don't already!) and maybe help out with some catechesis at the parish, if that's something you're capable of doing.

And above all, pray for the return of reverence in the Mass and all areas of Catholic devotion, especially before the Blessed Sacrament
[/quote]



Me talk to the priest? It seems kind of weird for me to talk to someone who has more education than I but you are right. I should talk to him.
He was really sweet and understanding in Confession but all I got for penance is an Our Father. I always end up making up more
penances for myself too. I'm not talking extreme, just something more than an Our Father. Even if reverently said it just seems
like not enough, not right somehow. I'm not suggestion we return to the days when priests gave our 20 and 30 penances. That
seems pointless. By that time a person would have forgotten what it was all about.

Also at Mass during the Consecration he said, "do this in memory of Me." That puts the stress on us and

our memories. It's "in remembrance of me." That puts the stress on Jesus.

I think a lot of this has happened because in many parishes Jesus has been removed away from
the center of worship and stuck somewhere in the back of the church. I liked the previous priest we had.
He was a holy man and did it right lol.

Thanks for the suggestions. My own experience with formation was very poor. If not for the fact
that I was blessed by contact with certain people and the Carmelite Sisters I'd know nothing.

[Lilllabettt]

isn't "do this in memory of Me" the standard way of saying it?

I don't get what wrong with "Mass of the Eucharist" either. I would think its more or less interchangeable with "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass." The Eucharist is THE holy sacrifice right?

[Nihil Obstat]

It is true that the concept of sacrifice has been enormously de-emphasized in recent decades. I think it has been replaced with a misunderstanding of community and participation. An example of this mentality is in the Altar. In the past it was unparalleled in beauty. It was grand and majestic and a powerful fixture. Now, more often than not, it's a simple table. It's not always like this, but it tends to be the norm.

Both of these are Catholic altars. Which one more clearly conveys sacrifice and reverence? Which looks kinda like a dinner table?
[img]http://www.salemcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/IMG_1852.JPG[/img]
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2491/4000707096_a0ce027c76.jpg[/img]

Now take a look at this: We actually have both in the same picture. Care to guess which one is regularly used?
[img]http://churchmousec.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/st-marys-catholic-church-bairnsdale-australia-flickrcom.jpg[/img]

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301345131' post='2223979']
It is true that the concept of sacrifice has been enormously de-emphasized in recent decades. I think it has been replaced with a misunderstanding of community and participation. An example of this mentality is in the Altar. In the past it was unparalleled in beauty. It was grand and majestic and a powerful fixture. Now, more often than not, it's a simple table. It's not always like this, but it tends to be the norm.

Both of these are Catholic altars. Which one more clearly conveys sacrifice and reverence? Which looks kinda like a dinner table?
[img]http://www.salemcatholic.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/IMG_1852.JPG[/img]
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2491/4000707096_a0ce027c76.jpg[/img]

Now take a look at this: We actually have both in the same picture. Care to guess which one is regularly used?
[img]http://churchmousec.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/st-marys-catholic-church-bairnsdale-australia-flickrcom.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Thats an easy one Nihil, the one in the foreground is regularly used as its the one that allows the priest to be the center of attention. The one at the rear would force the priest to be facing the sacrifice with his back to the congregation. Thats just too o;d fashioned for our modern church.

ed

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1301348931' post='2223990']
Thats an easy one Nihil, the one in the foreground is regularly used as its the one that allows the priest to be the center of attention. The one at the rear would force the priest to be facing the sacrifice with his back to the congregation. Thats just too o;d fashioned for our modern church.

ed
[/quote]
Exactly. I didn't wanna come right out and say it, because lately I get trolled a lot more often.

[Chamomile]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1301344225' post='2223977']
isn't "do this in memory of Me" the standard way of saying it?

I don't get what wrong with "Mass of the Eucharist" either. I would think its more or less interchangeable with "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass." The Eucharist is THE holy sacrifice right?
[/quote]

Hmmm... I just looked in the 1962 Missal, and the Latin is "in mei memoriam facietis." I don't know Latin and can't really translate that. And it looks the same in the Novus Ordo Latin (which is the official wording for the NO Mass). If there's someone with more Latin, maybe they can enlighten us.

Mass of the Eucharist just isn't normally said... I don't think I've ever heard it, and there might be theological issues with that, but I don't know enough theology to really go there (Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist is maybe what he meant?)

I think what the OP is getting at, though, is just a generally frustration at the way the Mass has been celebrated where she is - especially as there is a new priest - and how this relates to the understanding of the Mass among Catholics in general. But if it can be proved that "Mass of the Eucharist" has some historical context, I'd like to know! It's always good to keep growing in spiritual education, especially in regards to the Mass.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301345131' post='2223979']
It is true that the concept of sacrifice has been enormously de-emphasized in recent decades. I think it has been replaced with a misunderstanding of community and participation. An example of this mentality is in the Altar. In the past it was unparalleled in beauty. It was grand and majestic and a powerful fixture. Now, more often than not, it's a simple table. It's not always like this, but it tends to be the norm.

Both of these are Catholic altars. Which one more clearly conveys sacrifice and reverence? Which looks kinda like a dinner table?


Now take a look at this: We actually have both in the same picture. Care to guess which one is regularly used?
[/quote]

The thing is, it [b]is [/b]a dinner table. I think the root of some of our problems is that there are factions in the Church that set up the "Mass as Sacrifice" up against the "Mass as holy meal." Really it's both. This is a false dichotomy and I think we've spent the last four decades swinging from one extreme to the other. It's really sad that in a lot of places the phrase "holy sacrifice of the Mass" is a totally foreign term. Lots of people don't know it actually is meant to be a sacrifice. If you tell them, sometimes they start saying "ugh how caveman-ish" etc.

But it's a mistake to swing the other way. I think it's great that we have restored the "meal" and "feast" vocabulary to Catholic worship. Not only is it an important element theologically but it sort of underlines that we are feasting, and Who we are eating.

The word Eucharist is a very orthodox and traditional term to use for the Mass, because again it puts the focus on the Eucharist who is Jesus Christ really and truly present.

((((((whoops this is Maggie who posted this)))))))

Edited March 29, 2011 by Lilllabettt

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1301361014' post='2224056']
The thing is, it [b]is [/b]a dinner table. I think the root of some of our problems is that there are factions in the Church that set up the "Mass as Sacrifice" up against the "Mass as holy meal." Really it's both. This is a false dichotomy and I think we've spent the last four decades swinging from one extreme to the other. It's really sad that in a lot of places the phrase "holy sacrifice of the Mass" is a totally foreign term. Lots of people don't know it actually is meant to be a sacrifice. If you tell them, sometimes they start saying "ugh how caveman-ish" etc.

But it's a mistake to swing the other way. I think it's great that we have restored the "meal" and "feast" vocabulary to Catholic worship. Not only is it an important element theologically but it sort of underlines that we are feasting, and Who we are eating.

The word Eucharist is a very orthodox and traditional term to use for the Mass, because again it puts the focus on the Eucharist who is Jesus Christ really and truly present.
[/quote]
Completely regardless of the theology behind the Mass as a recreation of the Last Supper, making the altar look like a big solid dinner table is wildly inappropriate, and de-emphasizing the Holy Sacrifice aspect damages the faith of the congregation, as you acknowledge.
While in a theological sense we can identify the celebrant's altar with the table of the Last Supper, it does not follow that it can, even a little bit, look like the dinner table you have sitting in your kitchen.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1301361014' post='2224056']

((((((whoops this is Maggie who posted this)))))))
[/quote]


thats what you get for moving back

I hate that "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" is now code for something and "Eucharist" is code, and "Liturgy" is code.
I use plain "Mass" as my code word to tell people I have no agenda either way.
Boo code words.

[Chamomile]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1301394533' post='2224158']
thats what you get for moving back

I hate that "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" is now code for something and "Eucharist" is code, and "Liturgy" is code.
I use plain "Mass" as my code word to tell people I have no agenda either way.
Boo code words.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img]

I didn't know there were code words.

However, if someone is using any word or title for the Mass, but is doing so in a spirit of irreverence, regardless of what they say, it's the fruit of their actions that will reveal what they believe. And so one could say "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" and be incredibly uncharitable and unkind to others... and another could say the "Eucharistic Celebration" and be more reverent to Our Lord in the Eucharist and the very definition of charity to all people. Or vice versa. Or not at all. Only God knows one's heart, and so we shouldn't judge in that manner, but only discern the fruits to see if they are from God.

[b]But[/b].... there is something to be said for using understandable terms that describe the theological reality.

I actually think Divine Liturgy sounds best, even though I'm not an Eastern Catholic

And speaking of code words, I did hear recently - maybe from Scott Hahn - that originally the term "Eucharist" was used for what we now call the Mass... but in early Roman Christianity, even saying that word could get you killed. So they did come up with a code word: the word for dismissal (being sent out), [i]Missa[/i], which is where we get our word Mass.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1301342842' post='2223972']
Me talk to the priest? It seems kind of weird for me to talk to someone who has more education than I but you are right. I should talk to him.
He was really sweet and understanding in Confession but all I got for penance is an Our Father. I always end up making up more
penances for myself too. I'm not talking extreme, just something more than an Our Father. Even if reverently said it just seems
like not enough, not right somehow. I'm not suggestion we return to the days when priests gave our 20 and 30 penances. That
seems pointless. By that time a person would have forgotten what it was all about.

[/quote]


i would definatly advise against giving yourself more penance because you think the priest did not give you a proper penance. that quickly leads down the path of scrupulus. by doing it, your basically telling God that what your holy servent deems as penance for me is not good enough, so i will add more to it. just by praying 50 hail mary's or 50 our father's does not mean your peance is better or heard better by God. someone can say 1 our father with a contrite heart and that means more to God than the person who prays 50 our fathers and who does not have a contrite heart. my advice, do what your priest says in the confessional and be joyful absolution was given. why the need for anything more?

i'm not advocating not praying more to God for the forgiveness of your sins. I am simply advising do it for the purpose of your priest not giving you what YOU consider a good penance. remember, its not your job to judge what God's servent gives you for penance. its your job to do the penance.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1301411306' post='2224216']
i would definatly advise against giving yourself more penance because you think the priest did not give you a proper penance. that quickly leads down the path of scrupulus. by doing it, your basically telling God that what your holy servent deems as penance for me is not good enough, so i will add more to it. just by praying 50 hail mary's or 50 our father's does not mean your peance is better or heard better by God. someone can say 1 our father with a contrite heart and that means more to God than the person who prays 50 our fathers and who does not have a contrite heart. my advice, do what your priest says in the confessional and be joyful absolution was given. why the need for anything more?

i'm not advocating not praying more to God for the forgiveness of your sins. I am simply advising do it for the purpose of your priest not giving you what YOU consider a good penance. remember, its not your job to judge what God's servent gives you for penance. its your job to do the penance.
[/quote]