Dave Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 How would one address criticisms of Pope John Paul II for presenting an Anglican bishop with a pectoral cross? The ones complaining about it are claiming that to do so was to act contrary to the faith, as Anglicans lack valid orders, among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Pope Benedict gave a cross to the Bishop of Canterbury in 2009 as a gift. Someone is simply looking for a reason to dislike the Pope Benedict in the same way they probably didn't like John Paul II - surprise surprise.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 I don't think it's appropriate, no matter who does it. The pectoral cross is a symbol of episcopal authority, which Anglicans do not and cannot have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) Whatever, they call themselves bishops (though the Archdruid of Canterbury is not) and you want to get the person something they'll use. A cross is an appropriate thing to get another Christian. Gift makes sense to me. (I call Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury the Archdruid because he was ordained by the druids in 2002. I know it sounds like something out of the Onion but it is true.) Edited March 24, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 So I guess it was inappropiate for me to gift my presbyterian friend's son, just baptized, a Crucifix, since a Crucifix is associated to being Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300966803' post='2222921'] So I guess it was inappropiate for me to gift my presbyterian friend's son, just baptized, a Crucifix, since a Crucifix is associated to being Catholic. [/quote] Is the crucifix a symbol of authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300992508' post='2222987'] Is the crucifix a symbol of authority? [/quote] No. And neither is a pectoral cross. I could see it problematic if the Pope took his off and gave it to the Anglican Bishop...or anyone for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300993109' post='2222990'] No. And neither is a pectoral cross. I could see it problematic if the Pope took his off and gave it to the Anglican Bishop...or anyone for that matter. [/quote] This is not true. The pectoral cross is distinct from a simple crucifix. Lay people do not wear the pectoral cross, because it is a symbol of the office of bishop, which Anglicans cannot exercise. Newadvent: Pectorale (Crux Pectoralis). The name of the cross used by the pope, cardinals, bishops, abbots, and other prelates entitled to use the pontifical insignia. Braun, J. (1911). Pectorale. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved March 24, 2011 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11601a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300993974' post='2222993'] This is not true. The pectoral cross is distinct from a simple crucifix. Lay people do not wear the pectoral cross, because it is a symbol of the office of bishop, which Anglicans cannot exercise. Newadvent: Pectorale (Crux Pectoralis). The name of the cross used by the pope, cardinals, bishops, abbots, and other prelates entitled to use the pontifical insignia. Braun, J. (1911). Pectorale. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved March 24, 2011 from New Advent: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11601a.htm"]http://www.newadvent...then/11601a.htm[/url] [/quote] I still believe the Chair of Peter is the Pope's sign of authority. I never heard or read of the Pope speaking from the Pectoral Cross. Edited March 24, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300994418' post='2222995'] I still believe the Chair of Peter is the Pope's sign of authority. I never heard or read of the Pope speaking from the Pectoral Cross. [/quote] I said [i]episcopal[/i] sign of authority. There are many, many symbols of authority in the Church. There is the mitre, the crosier, the cathedral, the zuchetto, the galero (in the past more-so), and the list goes on and on and on. The pectoral cross is one symbol of episcopal authority. Anglicans who claim to be bishops do not have this authority, and so for a hierarch of the Catholic Church to present such a person with the symbol of that which they falsely claim is in a certain sense an acceptance of the claim itself. I obviously am not saying that any of the popes were legitimizing Anglican orders. I simply think the action was imprudent from the perspective of legitimate ecumenism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300997787' post='2223014'] I said [i]episcopal[/i] sign of authority. There are many, many symbols of authority in the Church. There is the mitre, the crosier, the cathedral, the zuchetto, the galero (in the past more-so), and the list goes on and on and on. The pectoral cross is one symbol of episcopal authority. Anglicans who claim to be bishops do not have this authority, and so for a hierarch of the Catholic Church to present such a person with the symbol of that which they falsely claim is in a certain sense an acceptance of the claim itself. I obviously am not saying that any of the popes were legitimizing Anglican orders. I simply think the action was imprudent from the perspective of legitimate ecumenism. [/quote] Overreaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 More symbols of authority (either episcopal generally, or specifically papal) (non exhaustive): Pallium Ring of the fisherman or other episcopal rings The colour amaranth (for bishops) or scarlet (for cardinals) The Papal tiara (triregnum) The cappa magna Pontifical gloves The bugia Omophor (Eastern) Sakkos (Eastern) Panagia (Eastern) Engolpion (Eastern) Palitza (Eastern) Nabedrennik (Russian) Mantle (Eastern) Dikirion and trikirion (Eastern) etc.[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300998243' post='2223017'] Overreaction. [/quote] Excuse me? How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) I don't think it's overreaction. I won't question the pope or his motives as he has more theological learning than anyone around here, myself most of all, but if I were in his shoes, I would not have given a similar gift. Edited March 24, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300993974' post='2222993'] This is not true. The pectoral cross is distinct from a simple crucifix. Lay people do not wear the pectoral cross, because it is a symbol of the office of bishop, which Anglicans cannot exercise. Newadvent: Pectorale (Crux Pectoralis). The name of the cross used by the pope, cardinals, bishops, abbots, and other prelates entitled to use the pontifical insignia. Braun, J. (1911). Pectorale. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved March 24, 2011 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11601a.htm [/quote] A pectoral cross is simply a large cross that hangs down to the chest instead of coming just to the collarbone. Yes it is a sign of a bishop but certainly not limited to them. Making a big deal of the Pope giving a cross to someone is making a mountain out of a molehill. Last I checked we are both members of the Body of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1300999375' post='2223020'] A pectoral cross is simply a large cross that hangs down to the chest instead of coming just to the collarbone. Yes it is a sign of a bishop but certainly not limited to them. Making a big deal of the Pope giving a cross to someone is making a mountain out of a molehill. Last I checked we are both members of the Body of Christ. [/quote] It is generally limited to bishops though. Ordinary priests are not permitted to wear them visibly. We are all members of the Body of Christ. That is obvious. However, some of us have far greater authority. Bishops are among those with more authority than lay people (which Anglicans are, whether or not they claim the episcopate), thus symbols of their office are worn appropriately only by bishops. What would you say if a pope invited the archdruid to the St. Peter's, took him to the altar, presented him with a full set of pontifical vestments, and then handed him an episcopal ring, mitre, and crosier? It's only different in its magnitude. The principle is identical. Edited March 24, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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