What's Going On In Libya?

[StMichael]

Who is this international community you speak of? France?

Our military is stretched thin as they have seen funding diminish under this administration and we are stretched way too thin to have military action in 3 countries now.

And who are these rebels? Muslim brotherhood? Al Qeada? Hamas? Who?

Why aren't we in the Sudan protecting Christians who are being killed if that is the new doctrine? Or even ensuring their safety in Iraq? And why didn't we get behind the uprising in Iran?

Sorry, this action makes no sense. Libya was not a threat to the US. Obama gave Quaddfi money in relief over the past 2 years, what has changed?

This region and its shifting actually will be an issue to both Europe and the US in the near future. And not in a good way.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1301452584' post='2224545']
???

The U.S. is involved because the international community has taken it upon itself to intervene, leveling the playing field so that the rebels/protesters can make their moves without being shelled by Gaddafi's air force. Whether or not you agree with that intervention is one thing. But insinuating that doing so is some part of nefarious conspiracy led by George Soros or whatever half-baked Glenn Beck garbage speaks for itself.
[/quote]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1301875359' post='2225732']
Hasani, what happened 10 years ago, what is happening today. Same thing. Muslims and their crusade against Christians and Jews continues.

Allahu Akbar..

Killing a family of jews in Israel (including a 3 month old baby) and handing out candy ...http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110312/ts_afp/ israelpalestiniansconflictsettlers

Like I said, get yourself a copy of "The Rage & The Pride" and "The Force of Reason" by Oriana Fallaci.


[/quote]

I won't even pretend to know I'm an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I'm fairly certain it's a little more complicated than you portray, esp when the death toll is so lopsided. Your posts are actually sort of disturbing to me. It seems that rage has clouded your perception of things. Reality is rarely "good-guys" vs. "bad guys" in fact with war it tends to be the really bad guys vs. the slightly less bad guys. To paint it in such a simplistic manner as you do just regurgitates some played out propaganda and provides fodder fr other folks who in their rage need a scapegoat to assign all of their disdain to.

that'll probably put me on your poo list but, the situation over there is just heartbreaking and when people act like it's so obvious who is making the big screw-up, I don't know it just seems cheap to me. It's not just you of course. I feel like the human thing to do is look at a tragedy as a tragedy and not as one more line to chalk up against (insert political/ideological villian here). Maybe I'm not making sense I'm tired, but I just feel like decency so often goes out the flipping window and it blows open my dumb little mind.

[StMichael]

Please repost what I have posted that you find so disturbing. And that is full of rage in this thread.

What is going on in the middle east? Are Christians killing muslims? Are Jews killing muslims? In Libya, it is muslims killing muslims. In Yemeni, it is the same. In Iraq, same thing. In the Sudan, it is muslims killing Christians. Christians are also being chased out of Iraq, Eqypt, etc.

Again, give a read to "The Force of Reason" by Oriana Fallaci, it will give you a full insight what has taken place in Europe or as she refers to it Eurabia.

I fail to see what is more disturbing, qualifying what we all see and know or denying what we all see and know.

From a US standpoint, our involvement there has no basis nor consistency as it poses no threat to the US, unless we were going there to kill Quaddifi for his crimes against the US, which is not what we are doing.

And please do give a read to that link I provided of that family that was killed by muslims in Israel, where they knifed to death a 3 month old baby and then they celebrated. How is that not the face and even more so the "religion" of absolute pure evil.

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1301919361' post='2225826']
I won't even pretend to know I'm an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I'm fairly certain it's a little more complicated than you portray, esp when the death toll is so lopsided. Your posts are actually sort of disturbing to me. It seems that rage has clouded your perception of things. Reality is rarely "good-guys" vs. "bad guys" in fact with war it tends to be the really bad guys vs. the slightly less bad guys. To paint it in such a simplistic manner as you do just regurgitates some played out propaganda and provides fodder fr other folks who in their rage need a scapegoat to assign all of their disdain to.

that'll probably put me on your poo list but, the situation over there is just heartbreaking and when people act like it's so obvious who is making the big screw-up, I don't know it just seems cheap to me. It's not just you of course. I feel like the human thing to do is look at a tragedy as a tragedy and not as one more line to chalk up against (insert political/ideological villian here). Maybe I'm not making sense I'm tired, but I just feel like decency so often goes out the flipping window and it blows open my dumb little mind.
[/quote]

[4588686]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1301919361' post='2225826']
I won't even pretend to know I'm an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I'm fairly certain it's a little more complicated than you portray, esp when the death toll is so lopsided. Your posts are actually sort of disturbing to me. It seems that rage has clouded your perception of things. Reality is rarely "good-guys" vs. "bad guys" in fact with war it tends to be the really bad guys vs. the slightly less bad guys. To paint it in such a simplistic manner as you do just regurgitates some played out propaganda and provides fodder fr other folks who in their rage need a scapegoat to assign all of their disdain to.

that'll probably put me on your poo list but, the situation over there is just heartbreaking and when people act like it's so obvious who is making the big screw-up, I don't know it just seems cheap to me. It's not just you of course. I feel like the human thing to do is look at a tragedy as a tragedy and not as one more line to chalk up against (insert political/ideological villian here). Maybe I'm not making sense I'm tired, but I just feel like decency so often goes out the flipping window and it blows open my dumb little mind.
[/quote]

Yep.

[kujo]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1301875894' post='2225736']
Who is this international community you speak of? France?

Our military is stretched thin as they have seen funding diminish under this administration and we are stretched way too thin to have military action in 3 countries now.

And who are these rebels? Muslim brotherhood? Al Qeada? Hamas? Who?

Why aren't we in the Sudan protecting Christians who are being killed if that is the new doctrine? Or even ensuring their safety in Iraq? And why didn't we get behind the uprising in Iran?

Sorry, this action makes no sense. Libya was not a threat to the US. Obama gave Quaddfi money in relief over the past 2 years, what has changed?

This region and its shifting actually will be an issue to both Europe and the US in the near future. And not in a good way.
[/quote]

First off, when I said "international community," I was referring to a) the United Nations Security Council, b) NATO, c) European Union and d) The Arab League.

Secondly, funding for our military has been dismal since the Clinton years. Bush II's cronies in congress, with all their bellicose rhetoric about spreading "freedom" and "liberty" seemed to have forgotten that our soldiers needed proper equipment in order to withstand the intense urban warfare that we have faced in Afghanistan and Iraq. The warplan from the get-go was premised on the notion that all that was needed for "freedom" and "liberty" to flourish was the ousting of the existing leadership. So we'd just roll into Country A, kick out their political leadership, and watch as a functioning, secure democracy was created out of nothing. Of course, when they realized that we would actually have to occupy the country and provide security for the main cities and for the **totally legitimate, untainted government** that we had facilitated, they failed to send enough ammo or armor to ensure our military's relative safety.

Thirdly, the rebels in question are a plurality of tribal, ethnic, sectarian, ideological groups whose only source of agreement is a desire to rid themselves of Gaddafi. Sure, there's probably a good deal of Islamic-extremists in the mix. But I don't see how that delegitimizes their cause.

And finally, if you're looking for consistency in politics, you better not hold your breath. There's no doctrine of protecting Christians; that would be absurd! We cannot and should not involve ourselves in the conflicts of other nations unless there is a clear, direct correlation between that conflict and our physical and economic security. In Libya, we're looking at a Balkan-like conglomerate of disparate tribes who have no historical ties to one another; there's no "nation," just some lines on a map that delineate where the "state" of Libya starts and ends. These lines were drawn by white guys in Europe with no respect to any cultural, religious or ethnic differences. The fact that they are members of the same country is no more legitimate than lumping the U.S. with Canada or Mexico. It's the same deal as in Iraq; there is no cultural "Iraqi," just people born in a country whose borders were artificially imposed by ignorant, racist imperialists.

So, in sum, while you and others would like to use this conflict as a wedge between Christians and Muslims, "real Americans" (i.e.- Republicans) and "commie socialist Europeans" (i.e.- Democrats), I see it as an example of a president failing to properly gauge national interest. We don't *need* to be there, so why are we? If the U.N. wanted to send people, go ahead; if NATO wanted to involve itself, we'll participate; maybe the Arab League, or the African Union, should have gotten together and come up with their own solution. I object to the notion that we *have to* be the moral standard bearer in the world. I'm not talking about isolationism; I think we should try to do what's best for us first and foremost. That involves humanitarian things like making sure black kids in Africa and Muslim kids in the Middle East have water and food and education because all of those things correlate with a more peaceful existence. That helps all of us.

[StMichael]

The United Nations? Where China and Russia voted no? Please. There is no precedent for the US to get permission from the UN where many of our enemies have a vote.

NATO. WE ARE NATO. We fund NATO by almost half and provide most if not all its military power.

The EU is not behind this effort. Nor is the Arab League. While it was first reported that they were, on 3/22 they came out against.

Clinton did reduce our military by 60% under the belief that we no longer had any enemies. Bush 43 rebuilt it. Obama has deconstructed it. Regardless, they are spread thin.

Libya is none of our business. If it is, then so is the Sudan, Yemen, Bahrain, etc. The only time our President, House, etc. can use military action is when it is a threat to America, Americans, etc. not to involve ourselves on in-fighting in a foreign nation.

I don't need this issue to wedge Christians, Jews vs. muslims, muslims do that.

What are the leaders in Egypt saying? Kill the jews. Kill America.

Sorry, but what we are seeing in the middle east is something we will be fighting for years.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1301972958' post='2226037']
First off, when I said "international community," I was referring to a) the United Nations Security Council, b) NATO, c) European Union and d) The Arab League.

Secondly, funding for our military has been dismal since the Clinton years. Bush II's cronies in congress, with all their bellicose rhetoric about spreading "freedom" and "liberty" seemed to have forgotten that our soldiers needed proper equipment in order to withstand the intense urban warfare that we have faced in Afghanistan and Iraq. The warplan from the get-go was premised on the notion that all that was needed for "freedom" and "liberty" to flourish was the ousting of the existing leadership. So we'd just roll into Country A, kick out their political leadership, and watch as a functioning, secure democracy was created out of nothing. Of course, when they realized that we would actually have to occupy the country and provide security for the main cities and for the **totally legitimate, untainted government** that we had facilitated, they failed to send enough ammo or armor to ensure our military's relative safety.

Thirdly, the rebels in question are a plurality of tribal, ethnic, sectarian, ideological groups whose only source of agreement is a desire to rid themselves of Gaddafi. Sure, there's probably a good deal of Islamic-extremists in the mix. But I don't see how that delegitimizes their cause.

And finally, if you're looking for consistency in politics, you better not hold your breath. There's no doctrine of protecting Christians; that would be absurd! We cannot and should not involve ourselves in the conflicts of other nations unless there is a clear, direct correlation between that conflict and our physical and economic security. In Libya, we're looking at a Balkan-like conglomerate of disparate tribes who have no historical ties to one another; there's no "nation," just some lines on a map that delineate where the "state" of Libya starts and ends. These lines were drawn by white guys in Europe with no respect to any cultural, religious or ethnic differences. The fact that they are members of the same country is no more legitimate than lumping the U.S. with Canada or Mexico. It's the same deal as in Iraq; there is no cultural "Iraqi," just people born in a country whose borders were artificially imposed by ignorant, racist imperialists.

So, in sum, while you and others would like to use this conflict as a wedge between Christians and Muslims, "real Americans" (i.e.- Republicans) and "commie socialist Europeans" (i.e.- Democrats), I see it as an example of a president failing to properly gauge national interest. We don't *need* to be there, so why are we? If the U.N. wanted to send people, go ahead; if NATO wanted to involve itself, we'll participate; maybe the Arab League, or the African Union, should have gotten together and come up with their own solution. I object to the notion that we *have to* be the moral standard bearer in the world. I'm not talking about isolationism; I think we should try to do what's best for us first and foremost. That involves humanitarian things like making sure black kids in Africa and Muslim kids in the Middle East have water and food and education because all of those things correlate with a more peaceful existence. That helps all of us.
[/quote]

[Luigi]

Anybody see this on AOL? Rumors about Gedafhi's birth:

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/31/the-mystery-behind-moammar-gadhafis-birth-some-say-hes-jewish/

1. His mother was Jewish
2. HIs grandmother was Jewish
3. His mother was Jewish, his father was Italian; his father took him to Venice and had him baptized at 8 or nine months
4. His father turned him over to a cardinal, who then turned him over to a shepherding family in Libya who raised him.

Warning: Slight anti-Catholic implication by a Libyan wirter - the Vatican refuses to make a comment about Gedafhi, and they've never criticized him... ever wonder why? Be forewarned.

[kujo]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1302061568' post='2226328']
Anybody see this on AOL? Rumors about Gedafhi's birth:

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/31/the-mystery-behind-moammar-gadhafis-birth-some-say-hes-jewish/

1. His mother was Jewish
2. HIs grandmother was Jewish
3. His mother was Jewish, his father was Italian; his father took him to Venice and had him baptized at 8 or nine months
4. His father turned him over to a cardinal, who then turned him over to a shepherding family in Libya who raised him.

Warning: Slight anti-Catholic implication by a Libyan wirter - the Vatican refuses to make a comment about Gedafhi, and they've never criticized him... ever wonder why? Be forewarned.
[/quote]

The Vatican also has refused to make a comment on whether boxers or briefs properly dispose one to holiness. Could this mean that they have a secret stake in the undergarments industry?!?!?!?

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1301294530' post='2223867']
I posted it twice earlier in this thread, way to pay attention
[/quote]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301294833' post='2223870']
Sowwy.
[/quote]

Nobody cares about Canadian fighter pilots except Don Cherry.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1302074189' post='2226355']
The Vatican also has refused to make a comment on whether boxers or briefs properly dispose one to holiness. Could this mean that they have a secret stake in the undergarments industry?!?!?!?
[/quote]

Dumb.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1301875479' post='2225733']
The President has the right to order military action. He cannot declare war, only Congress can. Congress can defund it if they disagree. Boehner, aside from being inept, has done nothing. Might as well be Pelosi.


[/quote]

Where in the Constitution is "the right to order military action?" Where is such a power enumerated? Because while he is Commander in Chief, it clearly says in Article 1 Section 8 that [i]Congress[/i] shall have the power to declare war. Launching 162 cruise missiles, flying military jets and bombing tanks? Those are what are known in international statute as "acts of war."

It's still war, even if you don't call it "war" when you're dropping bombs on people.

~Sternhauser

Edited April 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Luigi]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1302106978' post='2226394']
Dumb.




[/quote]

Agreed - and the Libyan authority undermines his credibility with this statement; I was sort of with him until he said this.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='StMichael' timestamp='1301936815' post='2225885']
Please repost what I have posted that you find so disturbing. And that is full of rage in this thread.

What is going on in the middle east? Are Christians killing muslims? Are Jews killing muslims? In Libya, it is muslims killing muslims. In Yemeni, it is the same. In Iraq, same thing. In the Sudan, it is muslims killing Christians. Christians are also being chased out of Iraq, Eqypt, etc.

Again, give a read to "The Force of Reason" by Oriana Fallaci, it will give you a full insight what has taken place in Europe or as she refers to it Eurabia.

I fail to see what is more disturbing, qualifying what we all see and know or denying what we all see and know.

From a US standpoint, our involvement there has no basis nor consistency as it poses no threat to the US, unless we were going there to kill Quaddifi for his crimes against the US, which is not what we are doing.

And please do give a read to that link I provided of that family that was killed by muslims in Israel, where they knifed to death a 3 month old baby and then they celebrated. How is that not the face and even more so the "religion" of absolute pure evil.


[/quote]


Anyone with even half an attempt at being fair would note that while there are instances of the mulsim pakistanis treating jews badly, it is basically state policy and widely accepted in israel to abuse the muslims. the laundry list of human rights abuses against the muslims in Israel, and in the parts around israel(which are not owned by israel, but are nonetheless illegally settled in) is a country mile long and written in legal document small size print.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1302334847' post='2227030']
Anyone with even half an attempt at being fair would note that while there are instances of the mulsim pakistanis treating jews badly, it is basically state policy and widely accepted in israel to abuse the muslims. the laundry list of human rights abuses against the muslims in Israel, and in the parts around israel(which are not owned by israel, but are nonetheless illegally settled in) is a country mile long and written in legal document small size print.
[/quote]

The Jewish State can do no wrong. What, do you hate Jews or something? There. I said what everyone was thinking, but didn't have the guts to say.

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1301452584' post='2224545']
???

The U.S. is involved because the international community has taken it upon itself to intervene, leveling the playing field so that the rebels/protesters can make their moves without being shelled by Gaddafi's air force. Whether or not you agree with that intervention is one thing. But insinuating that doing so is some part of nefarious conspiracy led by George Soros or whatever half-baked Glenn Beck garbage speaks for itself.
[/quote]
Insulting Glenn Beck doesn't make you look open minded.

Your standards are higher than that.

Just sayin'.