Maggyie Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300251812' post='2221084'] If you did read it, you didn't understand it. [/quote] I'm pretty sure he's trying to apply principles of supply and demand to healthcare. Which doesn't work, since again, healthcare is not a product and patients are not consumers. [quote]There are many of us who would pay, say, $30 to visit a C-grade doctor for a cold, versus $100 to visit an A-grade doctor... individuals would have at least had the opportunity to choose what they thought was best for them...why not... let individuals choose between higher-priced AMA-certified and lower-priced non-AMA-certified doctors? [/quote] Except for the poor, who would have no choice at all. [quote]With all this regulation and expensive healthcare, Americans receive only a mediocre quality of care[/quote] True. Europeans get much better care for a much lower price. With more regulation. [quote]Soviet hospitals were characterized by widespread apathy and disregard for lives:[/quote] Clearly Soviet medicine is the model for universal health care. That's why all those Europeans are contracting AIDS from dirty surgical instruments. [quote]Some pundits argue that technology increases medical costs[/quote] Yes, it does. Before MRIs were invented, for instance, there was no expense line for MRIs and neurological diagnosis and care was cheaper if less effective. [quote]Socialists believe we have a "right" to healthcare[/quote] Memo to the Pope: You Are A Socialist. Edited March 16, 2011 by Maggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 [quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1300253414' post='2221089'] I'm pretty sure he's trying to apply principles of supply and demand to healthcare. Which doesn't work, since again, healthcare is not a product and patients are not consumers. [/quote] My healthcare economics professor from last year would disagree with you very strongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300253646' post='2221090'] My healthcare economics professor from last year would disagree with you very strongly. [/quote] I realize that economists consider everything in values-free terms of supply and demand. This is why most economists would point out to you it is a better and more effective (cheaper) use of government money to provide free contraception or terminations than to provide pre-natal and post-natal care for high school mothers. It is also why the writers of Freakonomics drew the connecting line between legalized abortion and falling crime rates. It's all about efficiency. Not about right or wrong. However the Church teaches (and I think the human heart believes) that the greatest measure of an effective health care system is NOT its efficiency. It absolutely has to do with value judgments, social justice and social morality. I think a healthcare ethics professor would be a better source to consult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I don't know how such a system would be constructed, funded or administrated. But, plainly, [b]every single person in the United States should be able to receive the finest medical, dental and psychological care for whatever ails them for free[/b]. If you have a broken arm or you're in need of stitches, you should be able to go to whatever physician you need to in order to get it fixed and taken care of. And it shouldn't cost you a single penny. I believe every person in the [i]world[/i] should have this right as well, but I am only concerned, for the sake of this thread, with the U.S. Edited March 16, 2011 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 To say that healthcare must be free is literally to say that doctors should not make money. Do you think it's free in Canada? Our taxes pay the doctors. It looks like it's free because it goes through the government first. Guess what? It's. Not. Free. To enforce free healthcare, literally free healthcare, would mean forcing doctors to work for nothing, which would be disgustingly immoral. Everyone has the right to healthcare. Not free healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Exactly. the main appeal of canadian healthcare is not that it is free, but that absolutely everyone gets it. you get the same basic access everyone else does, even if you have a crappy job and lots of debt. Because we dont think that working at McDonalds or supporting a family with a low income means you deserve to go untreated when you or your family takes ill, or gets injured. I just moved from the bracket that doesnt pay into medicare, to the bracket that does, and i dont resent it at all. it supported me when i needed surgery, and its supporting my father as he goes through extensive cancer treatments and hugely expensive surgeries and recoveries. He just had his stomach REMOVED, and spent 50 days in the ICU. he is also a farmer and part time contractor, with no company benefits or retirement to look forward to. simply put, if it wasnt for this system, the cancer would still be in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 In my purely speculative opinion, Canada's system is not that good, but by sheer luck it's a lot better than it could be. In that same vein of speculation, I think that the US system took on a large portion of the poor elements from every system, and put them together to make something that is not very good at all. Specifically I'm talking about distorted prices inherent in the intervened economy combined with the personal responsibility/risk of the free economy, mixed with the bureaucracy of the worst of the planned economies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1300229727' post='2220976'] Meesa now worrying if it was just flamebait. Eagerly awaiting apparently's response. [/quote] still worried? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorForJesus Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1300255988' post='2221100'] I don't know how such a system would be constructed, funded or administrated. But, plainly, [b]every single person in the United States should be able to receive the finest medical, dental and psychological care for whatever ails them for free[/b]. If you have a broken arm or you're in need of stitches, you should be able to go to whatever physician you need to in order to get it fixed and taken care of. And it shouldn't cost you a single penny. I believe every person in the [i]world[/i] should have this right as well, but I am only concerned, for the sake of this thread, with the U.S. [/quote] [color="#800080"]I surely don't agree. I pay for groceries, although I have more of a right to eat than I have for staying healthy. Why should I get medical help for free if I purposefully forget to take my blood pressure medicine? I'm not really on bp medicine, but I do know a man who is on medicine that sometimes refuses to take it, until he gets in trouble, and then it is more expensive. No, we must pay for what we use. Janice[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='WarriorForJesus' timestamp='1300332088' post='2221324'] [color="#800080"]I surely don't agree. I pay for groceries, although I have more of a right to eat than I have for staying healthy. Why should I get medical help for free if I purposefully forget to take my blood pressure medicine? I'm not really on bp medicine, but I do know a man who is on medicine that sometimes refuses to take it, until he gets in trouble, and then it is more expensive. No, we must pay for what we use. Janice[/color] [/quote] why should the man who forgets his BP medicine set the standard for healthcare? but sure, compare having to spend 100,000s of thousands of dollars desperately trying to keep your child alive to going out and buying 12 eggs for 6 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1300255988' post='2221100'] I don't know how such a system would be constructed, funded or administrated. But, plainly, [b]every single person in the United States should be able to receive the finest medical, dental and psychological care for whatever ails them for free[/b]. If you have a broken arm or you're in need of stitches, you should be able to go to whatever physician you need to in order to get it fixed and taken care of. And it shouldn't cost you a single penny. I believe every person in the [i]world[/i] should have this right as well, but I am only concerned, for the sake of this thread, with the U.S. [/quote] [left]The advancement in healthcare would cease to exist. In such socialized systems, medical research is severely compromised. The level of freedom in research and medical commercialization matters greatly. It is a very large determinant of the speed with which future medicine arrives. For example, medical technologies capable of reversing age-related cellular damage that lies at the root of frailty, degeneration and death. [/left] [left]The very fact that there is "a system" is a breakage; that entrepreneurs are held back from investment by rules and political whims that are now held to be of greater importance than any number of lives. That decisions about your health and ability to obtain medicine are made in a centralized manner, by people with neither the incentives nor the ability to do well [/left] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300370246' post='2221384'] [left]The advancement in healthcare would cease to exist. [/quote] Haven't read the thread - but on this I have to disagree with you. The best doctors, in both research and patient care, work on salary at group practices. They make less than physicians and surgeons in private practice, but that is a trade off they are willing to make to be on the cutting edge of medicine. Prestige, not money, is what matters. They do not think of themselves as businessmen. The businessmen in medicine are those in private practice, who, wonderful and necessary though they may be, are not the innovators of the profession. I personally am the recipient of medical innovation born in a socialist environment - The surgery I had was pioneered and perfected in England in 1981. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1300370246' post='2221384'] [left]The advancement in healthcare would cease to exist. In such socialized systems, medical research is severely compromised. The level of freedom in research and medical commercialization matters greatly. It is a very large determinant of the speed with which future medicine arrives. For example, medical technologies capable of reversing age-related cellular damage that lies at the root of frailty, degeneration and death. [/left] [left]The very fact that there is "a system" is a breakage; that entrepreneurs are held back from investment by rules and political whims that are now held to be of greater importance than any number of lives. That decisions about your health and ability to obtain medicine are made in a centralized manner, by people with neither the incentives nor the ability to do well [/left] [/quote] You are most profound, Papist i agree wholeheartedly Additionally, the people who work in this industry are really underpaid for what they do. I know many, many, and many who have devoted their lives to healing, well educated, tireless, angles of mercy all. The system works, if you cannot truly afford health-care then the government does provide already, as others have pointed out through Medicate and Medicare. Nothing worthwhile in life is free, good health-care is not cheap. The doctors, nurses, specialists, the buildings/institutions, modern equipment are all a great blessing. Americans are very lucky to have free-market health-care Edited March 17, 2011 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1300399279' post='2221434'] You are most profound, Papist i agree wholeheartedly Additionally, the people who work in this industry are really underpaid for what they do. I know many, many, and many who have devoted their lives to healing, well educated, tireless, angles of mercy all. The system works, if you cannot truly afford health-care then the government does provide already, as others have pointed out through Medicate and Medicare. Nothing worthwhile in life is free, good health-care is not cheap. The doctors, nurses, specialists, the buildings/institutions, modern equipment are all a great blessing. Americans are very lucky to have free-market health-care [/quote] Why do you continue to refuse to read the original post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1300401580' post='2221439'] Why do you continue to refuse to read the original post? [/quote] because it is blarney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now