Rebuild The Big 3

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1299614701' post='2219279']
German auto workers make good wages. But the Germans decided to invest in creating a quality, high end product. Nobody is going to spend their hard earned money on a shiitake mushroom car. That's not a matter of patriotism. It's a matter of not being stupid.

I drive a Ford Thunderbird. It runs great even though it was made in 1994. If it ever breaks down, I'd prefer, all things being equal, to buy an American made product but I'm going to spend my money on the highest quality product that's within my price range. The end.
[/quote]

I like German Cars, and yes I agree they have a high quality product.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1299656825' post='2219463']
I think because the Big Three is a Oligopoly its a different than what you are talking about. You say that it leads to higher prices but it doesn't. The Big Three are still competing against each other so they regulate prices. Nobody else has to step in and do so. Plus as far as price goes...each company produces cheaper model cars and more expensive model cars. We can still buy cheap cars if thats all we can afford.

You say these things yet the industry was successful for nearly 100 years. It wasn't until foreign car companies starting to move in until American Cars started to decline. The Competition is unfair...Foreign cars don't get taxed when imported. Which makes it easier to produce more of them and make more profit. The Big Three are facing unfair competition. I don't even know if you can call it competition. Its like competing against someone in bowling and the other person is spotted 50-100 pins.
[/quote]
[quote]I think because the Big Three is a Oligopoly its a different than what you are talking about. You say that it leads to higher prices but it doesn't. The Big Three are still competing against each other so they regulate prices. Nobody else has to step in and do so. Plus as far as price goes...each company produces cheaper model cars and more expensive model cars. We can still buy cheap cars if thats all we can afford.
[/quote]
An oligopoly will be affected just as surely as a monopoly. This is economics on its most basic level. You restrict supply (through barriers to trade), and the price of domestic industry is allowed to inflate artificially. Severely curtailed competition allows for quality to suffer.
This allows the inefficient industry to take on the appearance of a competent one. Investment continues to flow into an unsustainable industry. When the artificial bubble bursts again (and it always does), it's just that much worse. Then there's even more investment capital tied up in what are proved to be worthless capital investments which are hard to liquidate.
American GDP would be far, far better served if investment capital were directed away from unsustainable industries and towards productive ones. You should take some microeconomic lessons to understand how comparative advantage functions.

[quote]You say these things yet the industry was successful for nearly 100 years. It wasn't until foreign car companies starting to move in until American Cars started to decline. The Competition is unfair...Foreign cars don't get taxed when imported. Which makes it easier to produce more of them and make more profit. The Big Three are facing unfair competition. I don't even know if you can call it competition. Its like competing against someone in bowling and the other person is spotted 50-100 pins.
[/quote]
The competition is unfair? I call yak. Foreign car manufacturers have simply proven themselves to be better in the industry than American manufacturers. Too bad. American exceptionalism is a myth. What would be unfair competition is if the import of foreign cars were artificially restricted through state intervention.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1299569088' post='2219096']
Be an American...Don't buy it! Get Chevrolet for the fuel economy. Have you seen gas prices rising lately?
[/quote]

She's officially Canadian....

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1299591261' post='2219134']
i love my corolla.. if american car companies would make cars in such pretty blue colors i might buy them...not to mention the 32 mpg overall... and reputation for dependability...

my parents were LOYAL ford buyers... but then fords were not getting the ratings so they are now all toyotas
[/quote]
I loved my Corolla. I had it in college. Wonderful car. When I had to replace it (we were in an accident together....) I could not afford to replace it with another Toyota. I had to replace it with an American car and it. was. terrible. In the 80s and early 90s American cars were, for the most part, horrible pieces of junk. HSdad and I had many, many examples from early in our marriage. As soon as we were able to, we went back to Hondas and Toyotas. When we bought our first minivan-- our first new car-- we decided to get a Dodge Caravan (we couldn't afford a new Toyota). It was a 1999. It's still running (Our parish owns it for our NET team). We loved that car-- had lots of memories of family road trips etc. Great car. But when it came time to replace it, we went with a Kia. HSdad and I both drive Korean cars now. (His is a 2000 and it's still running...)

[Jaime]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1299652997' post='2219447']
How? How are American Cars inferior to Asian Cars?
[/quote]

well for me I've owned 2 toyotas and had zero mechanical problems with them over 20 years. But my GMC has had over $6000 worth of work in seven years.


I'm going back to superior asian cars.

[add]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1299673926' post='2219485']
well for me I've owned 2 toyotas and had zero mechanical problems with them over 20 years. But my GMC has had over $6000 worth of work in seven years.
I'm going back to [color="#ff0000"][s]superio[/s]r[/color] inferior asian cars.[color="#ff0000"] fixed-it[/color]
[/quote]
I drive a GMC it was a little expensive to buy, but none, not one of the parts were made in a sweat-shop; its union-made!
Everyone involved, from the lonely janitor to the top made some decent money. The problem with non-domestic automobiles is only top are living large. I could give a rats, about toy-auto and the boat it sailed on. thank you

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1299675595' post='2219486']
I drive a GMC it was a little expensive to buy, but none, not one of the parts were made in a sweat-shop; its union-made!
Everyone involved, from the lonely janitor to the top made some decent money. The problem with non-domestic automobiles is only top are living large. I could give a rats, about toy-auto and the boat it sailed on. thank you
[/quote]
Why is the janitor lonely?

[Papist]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1299653195' post='2219448']
I see a lot of people claiming foreign cars are better. But how are they better?
[/quote]

I never said foreign cars are better, although I can see how you can interpret that from my words. I think on average the Asian cars are ahead of US cars when it comes to reliabilty. I think most cars US or foreign are generally reliable if you are keeping up with its scheduled maintanance and service. I think the Asian cars last longer when maintanance and service is neglected. This all based on my, family and friends experiences. I do think the US cars are better designed and features. My wife drive a Chrysler Town and Country, which is only minivan that offers the stow-n-go in both 2nd and 3rd rows. This is very handy b/c when I put both rows seats in the floor the minivan becomes a cargo van.

I think the rating organizations show US is lacking.

[u]The JD Power 2010 Top Quality Rating by Category[/u]
Compact Car - Ford Focus
Compact Crossover and SUV - Toyota FJ Cruiser
Compact Multi Purpose Vehicle - Scion xB
Compact Premium Sporty Car - Volvo C70
Compact Sporty Car - Mazda MX-5 Miata
Entry Premium Car - Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Entry Premium Crossover and SUV - Acura RDX
Large Car - Ford Taurus
Large Crossover and SUV - Chevrolet Tahoe
Large Pickup - tie -Chevrolet Avalanche & GMC Sierra LD
Large Premium Car - Lexus LS 460
Large Premium Crossover and SUV - Cadillac Escalade
Midsize Car - Honda Accord
Midsize Crossover and SUV - Honda Accord Crosstour
Midsize Pickup - Nissan Frontier
Midsize Premium Car - Lexus GS
Midsize Premium Crossover and SUV - Lexus GX 460
Midsize Sporty - Ford Mustang
Minivan - Toyota Sienna
Sub Compact Car - Hyundai Accent


Consumer Reports

[u]Tops in Tests
[/u]Lexus LS 460L
BMW 135i (manual)
Porsche 911 Carrera S (manual)
Mazda5 Grand Touring
Infiniti G37 Journey
Infiniti M37
Nissan Altima 3.5 SR (V6)
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (manual)
Hyundai Genesis 3.8
Nissan Altima 2.5 S (4-cyl.)

[u]The lowest scorers[/u]
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
Ford Ranger XLT (V6)
Jeep Liberty Sport
Smart ForTwo Passion
Chevrolet Aveo5 1LT
Dodge Nitro SLT
Chevrolet Aveo LT
Toyota FJ Cruiser

[Papist]

From consumerreports.org

[b]Who makes the best cars? [/b]

[b]Ford shows the biggest improvement[/b]

[b]Getting a boost[/b]

Newer models such as the Flex SUV pumped up Ford's overall road-test score.

Honda and Subaru still make the best vehicles overall, but Ford posted the largest gain in the past year, improving in its road-test and reliability scores. General Motors and Volvo also improved in both areas. On the other hand, Mercedes-Benz is the only manufacturer whose scores dropped in both measures.

Our automaker report cards reflect the performance, comfort, utility, and reliability of more than 270 vehicles that we've recently tested. Here are other highlights from this year's analysis:

[list][*]Honda, Subaru, and Toyota are the top three automakers for the third year in a row. Most of their vehicles do well in our tests and are relatively trouble-free.[*]Newer GM models have performed well in our tests, but the company still fields a few lackluster cars that drag down its overall score. Reliability has improved, but it's still not stellar.[*]Chrysler came in last, with the lowest average test score by far. But the company, now run by Italian automaker Fiat, is currently overhauling its lineup. Newer models, such as the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Ram, have done better in our tests than older models, and we're encouraged by our early looks at upcoming redesigns. Chrysler's reliability needs to improve for the automaker to be competitive.[*]European cars perform well in our tests, but many have confusing controls and inconsistent reliability. Volvo is the only European make with an above-average reliability score.[/list]
Each automaker's overall score is based on a composite of road-test and predicted-reliability scores for all of its models that we've tested. The road tests comprise more than 50 tests we perform, covering performance, safety, fuel economy, comfort, and convenience. Reliability scores come from our Annual Auto Survey. We also show the percentage of each carmaker's tested vehicles that we recommend. We revised our methodology this year, now giving equal weight to reliability and test scores. Previously, test scores carried more weight. So the overall scores are not directly comparable with last year's. We also had insufficient data on one brand we included last year, Mitsubishi.

[b]Asian makes lead the pack[/b]

Honda, including its Acura division, has had the best reliability record of any manufacturer and has made mostly good to outstanding vehicles. The subcompact Fit, midsized Accord, and Acura MDX SUV have been at or near the top of their categories for years. In fact, no Honda product scores less than average in reliability. But some new Hondas have been unimpressive, including the CR-Z and Insight hybrids, which didn't score well enough in our tests to be recommended. The redesigned Odyssey, still our top-ranked minivan, dropped a few points in our testing.

Subaru, which has the highest average road-test score, makes only about a half-dozen models, but almost all do well in our road tests and have been reliability stalwarts. The Forester is a top-rated small SUV, and the Legacy, a good-performing sedan, has improved with each generation. Only one model, the sporty Impreza WRX, has below-average reliability.

Toyota, Lexus, and Scion models remain solid choices overall, but some newer Toyotas have slipped in interior fit and finish, with the Sienna minivan and Venza wagon being two recent examples. Two Toyotas, the subcompact Yaris and the FJ Cruiser SUV, have shown superb reliability but scored too low in our road tests for us to recommend them.

Hyundai's overall road-test score is a bit higher than last year's and could further improve with the impressive new models we are now testing.

[b]Ford rules Detroit[/b]

Ford has outpaced its crosstown rivals in reliability in recent years. In our road tests, we have been impressed by current Fords such as the Fusion, Flex SUV, and Mustang. Even the new small Fiesta drives nicely. But the Ford Escape and Edge SUVs are nothing special, the large Ford Taurus has limited visibility, and the touch-sensitive controls in some new Fords and Lincolns are difficult to use.

Newer GM vehicles such as the Buick Enclave and LaCrosse, and the Chevrolet Equinox and Traverse, have done well in our road tests and have average reliability. The new Chevrolet Cruze performed well in our tests, but reliability remains to be seen. The below-average reliability of some Cadillac and GMC models hurts the automaker's overall score, as did subpar older models such as the Chevrolet Impala sedan, Colorado pickup, and the outgoing Aveo subcompact.

[b]Europe is mixed[/b]

If front-seat comfort, fit and finish, and driving dynamics were all that counted, European cars would rule the roost. As it is, subpar reliability hounds some European brands. Volkswagen's brand reliability has improved of late, but Audi's spotty reliability brings the combined automaker's score down. If the new Jetta sedan, with its low-grade interior and mediocre fuel economy, is an indication of where Volkswagen is headed, it's going in the wrong direction. Mercedes-Benz and BMW, with below-average reliability, are near the bottom of our ranking. Their SUVs, especially, had reliability problems, according to our survey, despite being good performers. And although the BMW 1 Series has an excellent road-test score, it is hobbled by terrible reliability.

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]

Edited March 9, 2011 by Papist

[Nihil Obstat]

The protectionists can feel free to ignore economic laws if they like, but they are still very much valid.

[add]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1299677776' post='2219495']
Why is the janitor lonely?
[/quote]

because he has a dirty job and no one cares

[rachael]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1299679015' post='2219498']
From consumerreports.org

[b]Who makes the best cars? [/b]

[b]Ford shows the biggest improvement[/b]

[b]Getting a boost[/b]

Newer models such as the Flex SUV pumped up Ford's overall road-test score.

Honda and Subaru still make the best vehicles overall, but Ford posted the largest gain in the past year, improving in its road-test and reliability scores. General Motors and Volvo also improved in both areas. On the other hand, Mercedes-Benz is the only manufacturer whose scores dropped in both measures.

Our automaker report cards reflect the performance, comfort, utility, and reliability of more than 270 vehicles that we've recently tested. Here are other highlights from this year's analysis:

[list][*]Honda, Subaru, and Toyota are the top three automakers for the third year in a row. Most of their vehicles do well in our tests and are relatively trouble-free.[*]Newer GM models have performed well in our tests, but the company still fields a few lackluster cars that drag down its overall score. Reliability has improved, but it's still not stellar.[*]Chrysler came in last, with the lowest average test score by far. But the company, now run by Italian automaker Fiat, is currently overhauling its lineup. Newer models, such as the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Ram, have done better in our tests than older models, and we're encouraged by our early looks at upcoming redesigns. Chrysler's reliability needs to improve for the automaker to be competitive.[*]European cars perform well in our tests, but many have confusing controls and inconsistent reliability. Volvo is the only European make with an above-average reliability score.[/list]
Each automaker's overall score is based on a composite of road-test and predicted-reliability scores for all of its models that we've tested. The road tests comprise more than 50 tests we perform, covering performance, safety, fuel economy, comfort, and convenience. Reliability scores come from our Annual Auto Survey. We also show the percentage of each carmaker's tested vehicles that we recommend. We revised our methodology this year, now giving equal weight to reliability and test scores. Previously, test scores carried more weight. So the overall scores are not directly comparable with last year's. We also had insufficient data on one brand we included last year, Mitsubishi.

[b]Asian makes lead the pack[/b]

Honda, including its Acura division, has had the best reliability record of any manufacturer and has made mostly good to outstanding vehicles. The subcompact Fit, midsized Accord, and Acura MDX SUV have been at or near the top of their categories for years. In fact, no Honda product scores less than average in reliability. But some new Hondas have been unimpressive, including the CR-Z and Insight hybrids, which didn't score well enough in our tests to be recommended. The redesigned Odyssey, still our top-ranked minivan, dropped a few points in our testing.

Subaru, which has the highest average road-test score, makes only about a half-dozen models, but almost all do well in our road tests and have been reliability stalwarts. The Forester is a top-rated small SUV, and the Legacy, a good-performing sedan, has improved with each generation. Only one model, the sporty Impreza WRX, has below-average reliability.

Toyota, Lexus, and Scion models remain solid choices overall, but some newer Toyotas have slipped in interior fit and finish, with the Sienna minivan and Venza wagon being two recent examples. Two Toyotas, the subcompact Yaris and the FJ Cruiser SUV, have shown superb reliability but scored too low in our road tests for us to recommend them.

Hyundai's overall road-test score is a bit higher than last year's and could further improve with the impressive new models we are now testing.

[b]Ford rules Detroit[/b]

Ford has outpaced its crosstown rivals in reliability in recent years. In our road tests, we have been impressed by current Fords such as the Fusion, Flex SUV, and Mustang. Even the new small Fiesta drives nicely. But the Ford Escape and Edge SUVs are nothing special, the large Ford Taurus has limited visibility, and the touch-sensitive controls in some new Fords and Lincolns are difficult to use.

Newer GM vehicles such as the Buick Enclave and LaCrosse, and the Chevrolet Equinox and Traverse, have done well in our road tests and have average reliability. The new Chevrolet Cruze performed well in our tests, but reliability remains to be seen. The below-average reliability of some Cadillac and GMC models hurts the automaker's overall score, as did subpar older models such as the Chevrolet Impala sedan, Colorado pickup, and the outgoing Aveo subcompact.

[b]Europe is mixed[/b]

If front-seat comfort, fit and finish, and driving dynamics were all that counted, European cars would rule the roost. As it is, subpar reliability hounds some European brands. Volkswagen's brand reliability has improved of late, but Audi's spotty reliability brings the combined automaker's score down. If the new Jetta sedan, with its low-grade interior and mediocre fuel economy, is an indication of where Volkswagen is headed, it's going in the wrong direction. Mercedes-Benz and BMW, with below-average reliability, are near the bottom of our ranking. Their SUVs, especially, had reliability problems, according to our survey, despite being good performers. And although the BMW 1 Series has an excellent road-test score, it is hobbled by terrible reliability.

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"][/size][/font]
[/quote]
Poor Detroit.

[Jaime]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1299675595' post='2219486']
I drive a GMC it was a little expensive to buy, but none, not one of the parts were made in a sweat-shop; its union-made!
Everyone involved, from the lonely janitor to the top made some decent money. The problem with non-domestic automobiles is only top are living large. I could give a rats, about toy-auto and the boat it sailed on. thank you
[/quote]

Well if union made was synonymous with quality made, you would have a point. But it doesn't (and for the record I'm in a union so I think I can speak my mind on the topic)

Also do you realized that roughly 50% of toyotas are being manufactured here in the US?

[add]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1299684121' post='2219521']
Well if union made was synonymous with quality made, you would have a point. But it doesn't (and for the record I'm in a union so I think I can speak my mind on the topic) sorry! i don't doubt you. [color="#0000ff"] it (my) truck is good enough for me, buy made-in-America, it is way cheaper in the long haul[/color]

Also do you realized that roughly 50% of toyotas are being manufactured here in the US? [color="#0000ff"] assemblers only - still good , as long as i don't have to scrub toilets (the lonely janitor)[/color]
[/quote]

:toy-auto

Edited March 9, 2011 by apparently

[Nihil Obstat]

Economic law functions whether you believe in it or not, taxation as sure as supply and demand, as sure as the speed of light, as sure as the law of gravity.
Sometimes, when you ignore them, they come back to bite you. The Big 3 must be allowed to fail. If they have any chance of succeeding in the real world, that is the only way they will be forced to do so. Otherwise, they are a drain on productive capital and only serve to weaken the economy.

[Papist]

[quote name='rachael' timestamp='1299683820' post='2219519']
Poor Detroit.
[/quote]
Yep, but self-inflicted. It was inevitable when the Unions are ONLY looking out for what’s in the best interest of the employees regardless the cost to the employer. The bubble eventually will burst…and it did.