What To Say To Someone Who Wants To Leave The Church

[Cherie]

I have a person very dear to me who is going through a very difficult time in her life right now - divorce, serious illness, difficult adult or almost-adult children, something of a mid-life crisis, etc. She grew up Catholic (nominally so) and while she learned a lot about her faith in recent years and has become an orthodox Catholic, she's been treated pretty badly by some members of her parish, and is very turned off by the priests there. (I know them, and unfortunately, they're not the most shepherd-like of priests; one is ridiculous vainglorious and the other is only concerned about money). She recently told me she's thinking of becoming Lutheran, even though she agrees with all the doctrines of the Catholic faith ("except I have trouble with Confession") because she thinks she'll fare better with the people there.

I told her everything I could to convince her that's the wrong choice, and truly, she [i]does[/i] know better, but she asked me, "Do you honestly think God will send me to hell for going to a church that I feel comfortable in?"

What do you say to that?!

[CatherineM]

Is there another parish anywhere near that you guys could try? Invite her to go on Saturday incase she is intent on going to the Lutheran.

[Nihil Obstat]

Send her to the FSSP.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1299095881' post='2217217']
Send her to the FSSP.
[/quote]

Ha! I think she'd have a heart attack!

CatherineM, there is another parish nearby that I have encouraged her to try. She says she will - I do hope so!!!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1299095693' post='2217215']
I have a person very dear to me who is going through a very difficult time in her life right now - divorce, serious illness, difficult adult or almost-adult children, something of a mid-life crisis, etc. She grew up Catholic (nominally so) and while she learned a lot about her faith in recent years and has become an orthodox Catholic, she's been treated pretty badly by some members of her parish, and is very turned off by the priests there. (I know them, and unfortunately, they're not the most shepherd-like of priests; one is ridiculous vainglorious and the other is only concerned about money). She recently told me she's thinking of becoming Lutheran, even though she agrees with all the doctrines of the Catholic faith ("except I have trouble with Confession") because she thinks she'll fare better with the people there.

I told her everything I could to convince her that's the wrong choice, and truly, she [i]does[/i] know better, but she asked me, "Do you honestly think God will send me to hell for going to a church that I feel comfortable in?"

What do you say to that?!
[/quote]
this reminds me of a quote i came across the other day:

St. Francis de Sales: "While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal, who allow scandals to destroy their faith, are guilty of spiritual suicide."

[Lil Red]

to add:

there's a reason that we still have a Church, after 2000+ years and priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes who are beyond the pale. honey, if that's not divine intervention, i don't know what is.

[Brother Adam]

God will not send her to hell for going to another church. Hell is a choice we make. Sin is a refusal to love and be loved by God. I would just do your best to love her, meet her needs, pray for her, and hope the Holy Spirit opens her heart. It sounds like she needs hope more than anything. There is nothing wrong with shaking the dust off your feet at a bad Catholic parish, reporting them to the bishop, and going to another one.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1299095693' post='2217215']I have a person very dear to me who is going through a very difficult time in her life right now - divorce, serious illness, difficult adult or almost-adult children, something of a mid-life crisis, etc. She grew up Catholic (nominally so) and while she learned a lot about her faith in recent years and has become an orthodox Catholic, she's been treated pretty badly by some members of her parish, and is very turned off by the priests there. (I know them, and unfortunately, they're not the most shepherd-like of priests; one is ridiculous vainglorious and the other is only concerned about money). She recently told me she's thinking of becoming Lutheran, even though she agrees with all the doctrines of the Catholic faith ("except I have trouble with Confession") because she thinks she'll fare better with the people there.

I told her everything I could to convince her that's the wrong choice, and truly, she [i]does[/i] know better, but she asked me, "Do you honestly think God will send me to hell for going to a church that I feel comfortable in?"

What do you say to that?! [/quote]This is something I can extremely relate to. I was harassed and bullied by Catholics and Religious to the point that I temporarily left. It took a good Priest who really does care to step in and intervene. A Priest who is involved was transferred to Arizona and was replaced by a very kind and gentle Priest who so far been nothing but considerate and sensitive. [i]Which honestly... bugs me some.[/i]

The two pieces of advise that float in my head as I think of this is from my parents as a child. My parents always taught me to think for myself and to question, to not let other people choose for me. Because most people are as fallible and stupid as me or anyone else, but that I should freely listen and consider what they have to contribute. I realize that by letting harassment and bullying push me away from the Church, I would be letting other people think for me and take my choices away from me. Even as a antitheist atheist who is a close friend of mine said, people being mean to you isn't good reason to leave you're commitments behind.[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1299095881' post='2217217']Send her to the FSSP. [/quote] Too soon.[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1299099207' post='2217238']God will not send her to hell for going to another church. Hell is a choice we make. Sin is a refusal to love and be loved by God. I would just do your best to love her, meet her needs, pray for her, and hope the Holy Spirit opens her heart. It sounds like she needs hope more than anything. There is nothing wrong with shaking the dust off your feet at a bad Catholic parish, reporting them to the bishop, and going to another one.[/quote]Defection from the Church doesn't impede salvation? I thought according to the Church it did? Maybe... I misunderstood you?

But I respectfully agree, we make our own hell and appeal our own demons in life. There are more and perhaps better options than leaving.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1299103515' post='2217266']Defection from the Church doesn't impede salvation? I thought according to the Church it did? Maybe... I misunderstood you?

But I respectfully agree, we make our own hell and appeal our own demons in life. There are more and perhaps better options than leaving.[/quote]
perhaps what brother adam is saying is that God will not send her to hell for attending another church. if she knows the truth of the Catholic faith, and still repudiates it, she will [u]set herself[/u] outside of salvation. just my first thought.

[Semper Catholic]

You don't have to go to a church to uphold the standards and practices of Jesus.

[tinytherese]

This reminds me of the quote usually attributed to St. Francis of Assissi, "Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."

Just imagine how different the world would be if every Catholic authentically lived out the faith! We'd have so many converts and people returning home to the fullness of truth!

Ask her if she is willing to walk away from the Jesus in the Eucharist. That's one of the main reasons why I'm Catholic.

Here's a quote from Did Jesus Have a Last Name? from pages 74-76.

[b]Why should I be Catholic when there are so many hypocrites in the Church?[/b]

A. Here's a way to look at this question: Imagine you lived in Palestine in Old Testament times. you would have seen many Israelites--God's chosen people--committing terrible sins (e.g., David's adultery and the murder of Uriah; see 2 Sam 11:1-27). If you judged the truth of their religion based on the behavior of its believers, you would run the risk of overlooking the great truths and wonders that God revealed to them. Similarly, if you had lived in the time of Jesus, you would have seen Him repeatedly rebuke the scribes and Pharisees as "hypocrites." But you would also have seen Jesus remind the people that the scribes and Pharisees held legitimate authority: "The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (Mt 23:2-3).

Ideally, it would have been better for the scribes and Pharisees to have "practiced what they preached." But not all of them were evil men. Many of them actually believed--or came to believe--in Jesus. Even among the apostles, we know that Judas betrayed jesus for thirty pieces of silver. But the others went to their deaths or were imprisoned for their commitment to the faith.

To judge the truth of the Catholic faith on the basis of the sinful actions of some of its memebers is like judging the quality of a Ferrari or Porsche by the quality of its driver. A driver who drives recklessly and crashes the car does not make the car bad. It is the bad driver that's the problem. In this analogy, we are all responsible in some way to seeing that the car is driven properly. In order to get a true picture of the sanctifying grace and power of the Church, we can look to the examples set by the great saints. They embraced the means of holiness given to the Church by Jesus (i.e., the Bible, the liturgy, and the sacraments) and reached great holiness.

Every human being on the planet is a sinner, but all are called to be saints. In this way, it is true that we are all hypocrites to [i]some[/i] degree. This is precisely the reason why Jesus came among us as a man, so that through His death and resurrection, we all may be freed from the bondage of sin and death and become holy. The Church has continued the work of winning souls to Christ for 2,000 years. In the Gospel, Jesus Himself is criticized for associating with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus responded by saying, "Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners" (Mk 2:17).

Remember: Jesus did not ask Peter if Phillip loved Him, or if James loved Him, or even if his brother, Andrew, loved Him. He asked Peter, "Do [i]you[/i] love me?" (Jn 21:17; emphasis added).

Jesus cares more about the answer we give Him about our own faith--and our own love--for Him than He does about the hypocrisy in the lives of others.

[cmotherofpirl]

"To be connected with the church is to be associated with scoundrels, warmongers, fakes, child-molesters, murderers, adulterers and hypocrites of every description.

It also, at the same time, identifies you with saints and the finest persons of heroic soul of every time, country, race, and gender.

To be a member of the church is to carry the mantle of both the worst sin and the finest heroism of soul because the church always looks exactly as it looked at the original crucifixion, God hung among thieves."
-- Fr. Ronald Rolheiser, O.M.I., "The Holy Longing"

[add]

could she go to mass with you, like a sister or family member?

[Cherie]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1299243498' post='2217805']
could she go to mass with you, like a sister or family member?
[/quote]

No, unfortunately not.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies! I really appreciate it!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1299095693' post='2217215']
I have a person very dear to me who is going through a very difficult time in her life right now - divorce, serious illness, difficult adult or almost-adult children, something of a mid-life crisis, etc. She grew up Catholic (nominally so) and while she learned a lot about her faith in recent years and has become an orthodox Catholic, she's been treated pretty badly by some members of her parish, and is very turned off by the priests there. (I know them, and unfortunately, they're not the most shepherd-like of priests; one is ridiculous vainglorious and the other is only concerned about money). She recently told me she's thinking of becoming Lutheran, even though she agrees with all the doctrines of the Catholic faith ("except I have trouble with Confession") because she thinks she'll fare better with the people there.

I told her everything I could to convince her that's the wrong choice, and truly, she [i]does[/i] know better, but she asked me, "Do you honestly think God will send me to hell for going to a church that I feel comfortable in?"

What do you say to that?!
[/quote]

Comfort has nothing to do with being a Christian. In choosing comfort, we often choose hell over heaven, and I imagine those who have treated her selfishly are also choosing self-comfort in their own ways.

At this point she's knows all the theology and reasons, so it's not any of that which is tempting her to consider worshiping elsewhere. It's obviously the way she feels, and if anything, her two priests need some serious prayer because (from what you tell) their sin is pushing her away and they will be answering for her soul. As for her, definitely look for another Catholic parish. How many are in your area?