American People.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1298826634' post='2216134']
Penciled? Low the person who attacks the country, this is true of attacks of a military or terroristic nature, but practically everybody attacks the country every day, including our President, he has apologized for his perceived failings of Americans across the world repeatedly, people like you are able to write negative things like this in a public forum with fear of reproach. Do you think you could do this in China? Tomorrow you could go to any government gathering with a protest sign, stand there and waive it and yell down with America, or Obama smells of elderberries, or even burn our flag and you may end up on TV, but you would not be detained unless you assaulted another, and you definitely would not be disappeared. If you truly think you have it so bad why don't you look into life in N. Korea ?
[/quote]

Ed, if I had a dime for everytime I was told to go live somewhere else to experiance the 'hardship' of another country, I would have enough to pay for the paper work [b][i]to [/i][/b]immigrate to another country. I have lived in this country all my life, so I can't imagine what it would be like. I don't think any of us can, unless we [i][b]have[/b][/i] lived there. So, I find this argument slanted and in nothing else a little ad homien as well. Another thing is that good ol America despite having all this 'freedom' we don't spread it, instead we smell of elderberries up to places like China because they pick up our debt.

[quote]
We as Americans are spoiled, none of us here has ever had to suffer the indignities of famine or a government that controls our religious practices or limits our ability to dissent through use of violence. When was the last time you were hungry and could not feed yourself as there was no food in your local stores, the last time you or a family or friend of yours was hauled away for stating something against the government policies ir leaders. I can post America smells of elderberries and not fear retaliation, and I post using my real name.

ed
[/quote]

Yeah, we are spoiled as Americans. Yet, we are as happy as clams to keep doing what we are doing aren't we? Even Catholics are happy to carry on spending in the consumer 'I want' mentality of America. (I am at fault in this as well) So, what is your point? Of course there are and more than likely will be starving children in Africa and China and wherever else, because we feel a need to build more tanks then feed 1,000 villages with that spending. I am not willing to just sit and twiddle my thumbs and say America is just so fantastic! I am grateful that I do have the rights that I do have, but then they are intrinsic to all human persons anyway, the "State" doesn't give them.

And I'm glad you use your real name. I don't hide mine either.

[Lilllabettt]

Patriotism is a virtue. Truly it is. Look it up.

I love America. I like American culture best. Not to say its "better" -- but I like it best. I'm also proud of my American citizenship. That ranks with the best things my parents ever game me. They got me baptized, they gave me brothers and a sister , and they made sure I had American citizenship, with all the rights and privileges that are due thereby.

I think the American story has been tragic, but also breathtaking, incredible and frankly miraculous. All you out there who think the American dream is dead - maybe it is for you. But there are still millions of people who dream of coming here, millions who struggle and sacrifice and risk their lives to get here, and millions who hold up our way of life as an ideal model for their own country.

All countries and cultures are beautiful and priceless and are an utterly unique gift. But until I see the heavenly country, I know America will always be the most beautiful to me.

[Ed Normile]

[b]Ed, if I had a dime for everytime I was told to go live somewhere else to experiance the 'hardship' of another country, I would have enough to pay for the paper work [i]to [/i]immigrate to another country.

[/b]Penciled, sorry to tell you, but you would be one dime short as I did not tell you to move to another country, I simply wrote look up what life would be like there. What would cause you to think I would want you to leave America, its young people like you who are the future of this country, stay put man and strive for greatness, lead by personal example, be a beacon not an eyesore. I never said your views were wrong, I feel they are skewed though, perhaps through the minor hardships we are facing right now. God forbid we ever have to face true shortages like those of the "greatest generation" had to face during WW2, think of the whining that would deafen us during gas rationing stamps, and nylon, rubber and even food shortages, and nightime blackouts. Loose lips sink ships!

ed

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1298827855' post='2216138']
Patriotism is a virtue. Truly it is. Look it up.

I love America. I like American culture best. Not to say its "better" -- but I like it best. I'm also proud of my American citizenship. That ranks with the best things my parents ever game me. They got me baptized, they gave me brothers and a sister , and they made sure I had American citizenship, with all the rights and privileges that are due thereby.

I think the American story has been tragic, but also breathtaking, incredible and frankly miraculous. All you out there who think the American dream is dead - maybe it is for you. But there are still millions of people who dream of coming here, millions who struggle and sacrifice and risk their lives to get here, and millions who hold up our way of life as an ideal model for their own country.

All countries and cultures are beautiful and priceless and are an utterly unique gift. But until I see the heavenly country, I know America will always be the most beautiful to me.
[/quote]

Lillabett, you bless America!

ed

[Mr.Cat]

The United States is still struggling to find acceptable and effective solutions to many diplomatic, military, political, social, environmental, educational, medical, resource, employment, and economic issues. Other countries have their fair share of problems, but I somehow imagine it's not like here. Because here you have a large portion of the population that for lack of better description are in denial and are hostile to change. Because of that, we as Americans tend to choose the worst parts of ideas then apply them in the stupidest way possible.

While we tend to blame politicians, we need not look far to who elect those politicians, complacency rules the day here.

I do have a patriotic love of my nation, it's history, my heritage, and even my state despite it's faults. Patriotism is not denial, in fact I think a true compatriot will see and admit to problems working to a common and mutual soultion. But the fact that as I drive through my own city I see a vibrant Vietnamese Catholic Community flying the former flag of South Vietnam, breath taking.

Americans need to wake up and reclaim their land.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[4588686]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1298827186' post='2216135']
Ed, if I had a dime for everytime I was told to go live somewhere else to experiance the 'hardship' of another country, I would have enough to pay for the paper work [b][i]to [/i][/b]immigrate to another country. I have lived in this country all my life, so I can't imagine what it would be like. I don't think any of us can, unless we [i][b]have[/b][/i] lived there. So, I find this argument slanted and in nothing else a little ad homien as well. Another thing is that good ol America despite having all this 'freedom' we don't spread it, instead we smell of elderberries up to places like China because they pick up our debt. [/QUOTE]

America spreads quite a bit of freedom. We led the charge to stop the slaughter in Bosnia and are still helping the Bosnia government advance reform. We recognized Kosovo. We pushed reform in Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines, and Egypt.

Yep. Egypt. The primary credit for the revolution in Egypt goes to the Egyptians who had the mettle to stand up to Mubarak's thugs. The breathing space that allowed the to be successful was in large part provided by an Egyptian army that was dependent on American aid and much of whose Officer Corps was trained by the American Army.

Much of what America does to promote freedom isn't flashy. You see it when you dive into the details. When we made aid grants to Bosnia contingent on the government ethnically reintegrating their army. Facilitating deals between the Bosnia government and the EU special representative. It's not flashy and it's not sexy but America does a lot to structurally adjust oppressive regimes. For example the greater freedom of speech present in Egypt when we got Mubarak to allow some criticism in the newspapers. If we just break off all contact with such nations then you get Iran. It's better to have leverage that we can use at strategically apt times to give democratic forces the space they need to throw the thugs out.


[QUOTE]Yeah, we are spoiled as Americans. Yet, we are as happy as clams to keep doing what we are doing aren't we? Even Catholics are happy to carry on spending in the consumer 'I want' mentality of America. (I am at fault in this as well) So, what is your point? Of course there are and more than likely will be starving children in Africa and China and wherever else, because we feel a need to build more tanks then feed 1,000 villages with that spending. I am not willing to just sit and twiddle my thumbs and say America is just so fantastic! I am grateful that I do have the rights that I do have, but then they are intrinsic to all human persons anyway, the "State" doesn't give them.

And I'm glad you use your real name. I don't hide mine either.
[/quote]
[i]
[size="2"]Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf. [/size][/i]
-George Orwell, 'Notes on Nationalism'
[url="http://www.george-orwell.org/Notes_on_Nationalism/0.html"]http://www.george-or...ionalism/0.html[/url]

Edited February 27, 2011 by Hasan

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1298832060' post='2216152']
America spreads quite a bit of freedom. We led the charge to stop the slaughter in Bosnia and are still helping the Bosnia government advance reform. We recognized Kosovo. We pushed reform in Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines, and Egypt.[/quote]

They funded Mubarak's military. They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran. They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price. They supported Osama Bin Laden, Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo, and gave half of Europe to Stalin.

[quote]The primary credit for the revolution in Egypt goes to the Egyptians who had the mettle to stand up to Mubarak's thugs.[/quote]

Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"][quote]Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf. [/size][/i]
-George Orwell, 'Notes on Nationalism'
[url="http://www.george-orwell.org/Notes_on_Nationalism/0.html"]http://www.george-or...ionalism/0.html[/url]
[/quote]

Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298836785' post='2216167']
They funded Mubarak's military.[/QUOTE]

Yes. They funded the military that kept peace with Israel and helped prevent another regional war. How many times have Egypt and Israel gone to war since we made Egypt's military dependent on us? The Egyptian military was the linchpin of who held power in Egypt that they decided against Mubarak helped win the day for the protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12514316

[QUOTE]They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about chemical weapons for Saddam. If you can provide evidence for it I'll check it out.


[QUOTE]They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Eisenhower helped oust Mossadegh with the CIA via operation AJAX after he nationalized Algo-Iranian (now known as BP) oil fields and infrastructure. The British managed to convince him that Mossadegh was a communist threat. We did prop up the Shah.

[QUOTE]They supported Osama Bin Laden[/QUOTE]

Nope. Not everyone fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan was working for Bin Laden.

[QUOTE]Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo,[/QUOTE]

I know next to nothing about Latin America. The impression I have gotten is that we did a lot of shameful things in the region during the cold war (and long before that as well).

[QUOTE]and gave half of Europe to Stalin.[/QUOTE]


So Stalin was chilling in Russia and we just said, "Hey Koba, how'd you like half of Europe???"

You are better than that sort of intellectually dishonest characterization.


[QUOTE]Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"][/QUOTE]

Yep.

[QUOTE]Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Jesus didn't have to run a state.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298836785' post='2216167']
They funded Mubarak's military. They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran. They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price. They supported Osama Bin Laden, Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo, and gave half of Europe to Stalin.



Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"]

Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


These were called mistakes, part of the human condition. Mubarak was our allie, of course we sold him weapons. At different points in time both Iraq and Iran were both friendly to the U.S.and her interests. If we befriend and aid whatever political party comes in to power in Egypt when the dust settles, offer them aid and share our technology with them to enable them economic and miltary security with the end game of helping the average citizen and then someday 10-50 years down the road some nut use's that tyechnology or monies against us then some other nut will say " America funded them and sold them weapons" how can we or any other country or institution control the future usage of technologies? Thinking along those lines should the world be upset at England as they lost the wars and allowed America to become the great " Evil Empire " or should we just blame God for creating us?

ed

[4588686]

Stern.

I am not claiming that every foreign policy decision America has made has been for the advancement of freedom and the protection of human rights.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1298838370' post='2216171']
Yes. They funded the military that kept peace with Israel and helped prevent another regional war. How many times have Egypt and Israel gone to war since we made Egypt's military dependent on us? The Egyptian military was the linchpin of who held power in Egypt that they decided against Mubarak helped win the day for the protesters.

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12514316"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-12514316[/url] [/quote]

Egypt and Israel going to war or not going to war need not involve the United State.



[quote] don't know about chemical weapons for Saddam. If you can provide evidence for it I'll check it out.[/quote]

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp More than a few independent reports.


[quote]
Nope. Eisenhower helped oust Mossadegh with the CIA via operation AJAX after he nationalized Algo-Iranian (now known as BP) oil fields and infrastructure. The British managed to convince him that Mossadegh was a communist threat. We did prop up the Shah. [/quote]

Sorry, had a bout of factual dislexia for a second there. They installed the Shah, not merely propped up.

[quote]
Nope. Not everyone fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan was working for Bin Laden.
[/quote]

Didn't say they were. I said they funded Bin Laden. Which they did. He was a hero when he was helping expel one Empire trying to invade and occupy them. Now anyone who is trying to do the same thing is a "terrorist."

[quote]
So Stalin was chilling in Russia and we just said, "Hey Koba, how'd you like half of Europe???"[/quote]

Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were chilling at the Yalta Conference, and they grabbed a National Geographic map and divvied up the continent right then and there. I'd say that cavalier plan amounts to the same thing. Don't overlook Operation Keelhaul, either.


[quote]Jesus didn't have to run a state.[/quote]

Who does?

~Sternhauser

[add]

“We have the best government that money can buy.”

- Mark Twain


[url="http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/sarcasticquotes/marktwain"]
[/url]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1298838631' post='2216172']
These were called mistakes, part of the human condition. Mubarak was our allie, of course we sold him weapons. At different points in time both Iraq and Iran were both friendly to the U.S.and her interests. If we befriend and aid whatever political party comes in to power in Egypt when the dust settles, offer them aid and share our technology with them to enable them economic and miltary security with the end game of helping the average citizen and then someday 10-50 years down the road some nut use's that tyechnology or monies against us then some other nut will say " America funded them and sold them weapons" how can we or any other country or institution control the future usage of technologies? Thinking along those lines should the world be upset at England as they lost the wars and allowed America to become the great " Evil Empire " or should we just blame God for creating us?

ed
[/quote]

Ed, of all the laws the Statethugs break, their constent flouting of the law of unintended consequences is their most egregious offense. The combination of historical ignorance and political expedience ensure that innocent people will suffer because of the State's actions. I wouldn't trust a congressman to watch my dog for a weekend, yet you trust them to send money and weapons to foreign dictators. Do you think even a simple majority of people in congress and the Senate are moral people? Rosa DeLauro, Nancy Pelosi , Jim Moran, John Dingell, Loretta Sanchez, Joe Baca, Carolyn McCarthy and John Kerry, some primo publicly-dissenting "Catholics," come to mind. How many do you think have any understanding of or respect for the Just War Principle, or any respect for the principle of double effect? Never mind that, how many do you think aren't consequentialists?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Maximilianus]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg&feature=related[/media]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1298856059' post='2216300']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg&feature=related[/media]
[/quote]

I'll see your Ray Charles and raise you a Sibelius.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvz9PvczUMI[/media]

~Sternhauser

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sternhauser