Toxic Friendships

[Anastasia13]

How do you know if you should ditch a toxic friend or work more resolve the issues?

[Nihil Obstat]

I think ditching the friendship is more often the correct choice. People like that tend not to change unless they hit rock bottom first, and even then, who knows?

[TeresaBenedicta]

I think that giving an honest look at what is best both for you and for the other will shed light on what to do. Is this active friendship drawing the both of you closer to God? If not, why? What would need to be changed in order for it to be a holy friendship? Is that possible? Or is it better, in the long run, to let go of an active friendship?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298783149' post='2216063']
I think ditching the friendship is more often the correct choice. People like that tend not to change unless they hit rock bottom first, and even then, who knows?
[/quote]
Ok. So the loving thing to do is not to be patient and enduring because stating teaches them that it is ok to treat people like that?

How do you end the relationship? Do you explain? Do you just disappear? In this particular case, my use is for talking about analytical things, so I'm not worth a phone call, just an IM conversation. As such, he is currently blocked on IM but I did not tell him that.

[Ed Normile]

I just do not understand a toxic frienship. A friendship is a relationship, and for any relationship to work it has to be beneficial for both involved. If one is toxic , or unappealing by nature or deed then how can there be a relationship to begin with? if a person is either an abusive personality or a needy type who places undue pressures on the other I doubt they could ever change them, personalities are hard to change, often impossible. I think men and women see these things differently, I remember the words of a comedian talking about marriage, he said " Men marry hoping their wife will never change, and women marry hoping they can change their hubby " if you think about that statement its not really fair to try and change a person unless they are asking for your help to change. If you do not like the way they behave then they are not right for you. Tying to change them may insult or upset them, it would be far better to enjoy their space and leave them to find someone who is attracted to their behaviour.

ed

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1298783675' post='2216066']
Ok. So the loving thing to do is not to be patient and enduring because stating teaches them that it is ok to treat people like that?

How do you end the relationship? Do you explain? Do you just disappear? In this particular case, my use is for talking about analytical things, so I'm not worth a phone call, just an IM conversation. As such, he is currently blocked on IM but I did not tell him that.
[/quote]
I recently ended what I consider to be a toxic friendship. Number one, any advice that I might have been able to give was falling on willfully deaf ears. Number two, some of my interaction with this person in the past had been twisted in unhealthy ways that were a source of gossip that some people seem to delight in. I'm not quite sure how often that happened, but I'm relatively sure it was more often than I even want to know Third, these interactions were, in my opinion, harming me emotionally. I can't quite express why I feel this, but I know that when I finished talking to this person, more often than not I'd feel drained and unhappy and anxious. That's unhealthy for me, it's unhealthy for my family, and it has the potential to damage those relationships which are most important to me.

So what I did, when I realized this, is that I just disappeared. I am (was?) friends with this person, and we have many friends in common, so I obviously can't sever all ties, but what I did was enforce a very strict emotional distance. I know that it was painful for this person, but I believe that it was necessary. The only good thing I think I could possibly do for that person is not to be there anymore.

I have to say that I don't miss that friendship at all. I have much more clarity in hindsight, and I can see that from the very start the same problems were there, and they were just as unhealthy for everybody when we were close friends, as when I decided to cut ties.

If I am asked directly about it, I do explain my reasoning. So far this person has not directly asked me, so I have not explained to that person, but I have explained it to a few of our mutual friends. If this person can figure out healthy ways to deal with those issues, I may very well be there in the future, but right now I do not foresee that happening.

[CatherineM]

I try to distance myself. I have found confrontation with someone who is a tad dysfunctional is a good way to escalate it into nastiness.

[Luigi]

Unless you're super mature & super strong yourself, the toxicity will eventually harm you. If you've tried to help the person but the toxicity remains, the only practical thing to do is put some distance between the two of you. When I've been in these situations - a number of them, including with relatives and even siblings - I have tried to develop the attitude, "Don't go away mad, just go go away."

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1298783528' post='2216065']
I think that giving an honest look at what is best both for you and for the other will shed light on what to do. Is this active friendship drawing the both of you closer to God? If not, why? What would need to be changed in order for it to be a holy friendship? Is that possible? Or is it better, in the long run, to let go of an active friendship?
[/quote]

Is this a an example of questions just to ask myself or should I mention here what I want? We rarely talk about God. I get upset sometimes, and I don't sleep well after we talk. I have had more negative emotion tied to this relationship than any other in the last 15 years.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Light and Truth

[Ice_nine]

My solution: distance yourself emotionally but sort of maintain a physical presence if the other person desires it. Most likely if a person is toxic he/she will be too wrapped up in his/her own poo to notice.

[Starets]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1298788989' post='2216084']
Is this a an example of questions just to ask myself or should I mention here what I want? We rarely talk about God. I get upset sometimes, and I don't sleep well after we talk. I have had more negative emotion tied to this relationship than any other in the last 15 years.
[/quote]

By the sounds of it, it would be healthy to ask yourself the same sorts of questions that Nihl Obstat asked when he ended that toxic relationship of which he spoke a couple posts earlier. If you find yourself answering teh same way he evidently did, then it is tine to end the relationship.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Light and Truth' timestamp='1298781869' post='2216056']
How do you know if you should ditch a toxic friend or work more resolve the issues?
[/quote]
Some thoughts on the topic.

I think it depends on

a] why they were your friend in the first place: childhood - school - work - family - neighborhood - same group of friends

b]how much value that you place on the relationship: how often you see the person- must you see the person

c]what exactly is toxic: your belief systems are different - they are acting out - intimidating you - breaking the law - placing you in unsafe situations -constantly puting you down to build up their own self-esteem

d]and what you will lose if you drop it - are they part of a package deal - will you lose other friends or family

Can you possibly sit down and say I am having problems with our relationship and having trouble continuing it?

[Mr.Cat]

I try ([i]I do fail[/i]) to give people, moreover my friends, the benefit of the doubt, a wide berth, patience, tolerance, acceptance, understanding, freedom, neutrality, non-interference, and minimal influence in as much as possible. People can go through phases or have something happening that affects their moods, attitudes, behaviors, and more. When my friend had a serious gallbladder problem and snapped at me frequently, I realized it wasn't a toxic friendship but dire pain. When one of my friends had a drinking problem that caused them to become violent and decide I was the best person to go yell at for their problems, I listened politely and I realized then that all of this was misdirected, as soon as they sobered up they were quite apologetic. Over time they received the help they needed, via court order, and these problems are no more.

The two big symptoms of a bad or toxic friendship is poor communication and poor results. A friendship where you are not free and welcome to be yourself, express yourself, or see good fruits/flowers from tends to be one to avoid. Ending a friendship regardless of how civil is a messy, emotional, and big issue regardless of denial or blame. In my experience, when you directly end a friendship the chance of retaliation is possible... regretfully.

I had a friendship that was bullying, harassing, manipulative, abusive, and belittling to an extreme. Sadly because of circumstances around it I foolishly tolerated it. It resulted in more serious abuse that continues to leave an impact now. In hind sight I wish I heeded more seriously the warning signs that I and my friends saw. However, in a lesser extent, in another friendship that was like a microcosm of the previous ended on its own. Which I agreed with, it was the best decision considering voluntary and mutual communication, understanding, tolerance, cooperation, and benefit of the doubt was no longer possible.

But in both cases the ramifications of those actions were felt months afterward, even after attempts were made to smooth hostilities, in the extreme case they were threatened by doctors to leave me alone or face legal charges. Which after that they "[i]decided[/i]" it wasn't worth their effort, good for them.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1298818661' post='2216107']
My solution: distance yourself emotionally but sort of maintain a physical presence if the other person desires it. Most likely if a person is toxic he/she will be too wrapped up in his/her own poo to notice.
[/quote]
I graduated from the school we met at, we live far away (hence when he asked me out once to test my boundaries of how far I would drive for him, I got to say know to driving 35 miles to a mall near his house for his convenience), and generally it's too expensive to call (even though he doesn't have to work as he is "subsidized" by his parents). Nearly all of our communication is online via IM, though we met at school. He messages me me more that I message him. He figured out that he was blocked last time I had him blocked for a summer despite not much social circle overlap.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Light and Truth

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298823198' post='2216120']
Some thoughts on the topic.

I think it depends on

a] why they were your friend in the first place: childhood - school - work - family - neighborhood - same group of friends[/quote]
We once went to the same college and were both finance majors at the time. I was one of the more logical people at first. To my knowledge, I can get along at least well enough with most people I meet.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298823198' post='2216120']b]how much value that you place on the relationship: how often you see the person- must you see the person [/quote]I get almost nothing good out of talking with him that I can't get from message boards, news articles, books, and comments on news articles.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298823198' post='2216120']c]what exactly is toxic: your belief systems are different - they are acting out - intimidating you - breaking the law - placing you in unsafe situations -constantly putting you down to build up their own self-esteem[/quote] I already established that he values independence much more than me. He also much more values "enlightenment" from reading news, watching documentaries about how things work, analyzing everything. He wants me to be like this when I am not or I am largely "unenlightened" but if being enlightened means communicating like him, then SCREW enlightenment! I won't change who I am just to please him. If I don't do everything in a very logically stated way, then I am just gambling with my life. Apart from this, I may not have heard these more than once:

I view things religiously->I am unscientific. (In in fact am somewhat, but establish certain principles with my religion which was, on a fundamental level, scientifically chosen.)
When asked how I exercise, I go walking with a friend and a few other things. "So why are you not toned?" If I had answered with more details, then I would have been more toned.
It's nice to know that there is no reason why I should move out of my parents by the time I have been well employed for a year because it is cheaper, which is logical, and all my reasons are unnecessary. Same as when we were discussing the peace corp.
I want him to be Seinfeld.
I want to control him.
He has to always be wrong with me.
He has to be careful with me because I am sensitive.
I stay busy so that I don't have to deal with a sense of loss or something in my life.
I consume too much entertainment.
I don't reflect on my life. He goes walking for an hour a day before the sunrises and reflects (though most of our conversations start after 11 pm, but he isn't always up that late normally.)
By not studying the world the way he does, I life an unexamined life, the sort that the saying says is not worth living.
He knows certain things about being forced to do hard logic make uneasy, but he doesn't make me uncomfortable because he doesn't shame me by calling me names or something.
Because I worry about paying off my debt, I must by $40,000 in debt (he was surprised I was not).
But I am not the supersaver he thought I was because when I am out and really hungry, I do buy something cheap. Which means I live more for today, where he lives for tomorrow because he is a supersaver who is saving for his first home and he only pigs out on Saturdays.
On the other hand, I should not worry about what I will do as a career too much because the husband will be the breadwinner (which is fine except I don't know when I will get married, won't have much if I don't have a solid job and my husband dies, and my mom doesn't qualify much for social security because she hasn't worked enough and she is too disabled to go back to work now. If I don't really care, I don't do it.
But I should find someone soon though because women's chances slim as they get older, or was it our expiration date... I don't remember, but it's not like that was new to me since I had hoped to be engaged by now and am single.
A while ago, I was single because I was too rational.
Now I am not capable of hard logic. No woman are, but we have a sort of emotional science. This makes me not much better than a ditzy girl.

Also, he is going to work for the IRS and have everything planned (I heard this 10 times). (I spent my education doing the practical thing and not what makes me happy and the jobs that are around me are not what makes me happy.)
I had to point out that most of my friends don't talk with their friends by telling them that they are hot, which I heard 7 times I think before I last pointed that out no one I know tells me this and this is something for non-platonic relationships.
He is subsidized by his parents, which I heard several times. His mom has a nice job in a dentist's office. (4 times)

He overcame his ADD by logic (I still have my biochemical ADD).
He eats really healthy (wish my fam could afford Ezekial bread).
He is going to get buff so that people will be attracted to him as someone who is successful and good looking.
Emotions are mere abstractions.
And he likes trolling forums.
He braindumps employers and gets requests for his resume by doing that because he knows how to stump all sorts of people with asking how the the illogical things of world work. He has actually been able to show profs in office hours how something they said was wrong.

On the other hand, he is right about certain things, like I can be a bit negative about being able to find a better job, and I worry too much. He is not the first person to say that.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298823198' post='2216120']d]and what you will lose if you drop it - are they part of a package deal - will you lose other friends or family[/quote]Not much, except it will be the first time I will have ended a relationship like that.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298823198' post='2216120']Can you possibly sit down and say I am having problems with our relationship and having trouble continuing it?
[/quote]It's not about explaining it; it's about justifying my views. He justifies everything he does/things with logic. He is one of those hardcore logic types who only works on that level. I will have to argue that a problem exists and how this is the best way to deal with it and either do it very well or be considered illogical/unenlightened/wanting him to be like Seinfeld instead of who he is.

Benefit of the doubt: He is probably a gifted intellectual who doesn't have many people he can relate to. I just am not one of those people he can, even if I am a little above average in that particular way.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Light and Truth