Another Trinity Question

[Catherine Therese]

[i][b][u]Disclaimer:[/u] [/b]I know and profess to believe all that the Catholic Church teaches on the Trinity. The purpose of this thread is to explore and discuss because I'm interested to hear what you folks might be able to offer on the topic. Just so no-one thinks I'm a heretic even by asking the question!![/i]

OK, so here we go.

1. In the Nicene Creed, we profess to believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, [b]who proceeds from[/b] the Father and the Son. This language suggests that the Father and the Son existed PRIOR to the Holy Spirit. If y proceeds from x, surely x has to exist for y then to proceed from it?

2. We know that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God - this is straight from John's Gospel, playing on the first creation account in Genesis. Revelation through Scripture in these passages support the fact that the Father and the Son existed at Creation. There does not appear to be mention of the Holy Spirit at the point of Creation.

3. Prior to history, only the Creator existed. Inside of time, God brings forth creation. Given that there appears to be a chronological relationship between the first Two Persons of the Trinity and the Third, doesn't this suggest that the Holy Spirit is creation, not Creator?

1 + 2 + 3 would seem to suggest that the Holy Spirit is not God?




How would you dismantle the above argument? Go nuts, people! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/popcorn2.gif[/img]

[Miss Hepburn]

Well, remember Gen 1:2 -
...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...

Miss Hepburn

[MIKolbe]

Not that I am smart, but

1) I don't agree that [b]who proceeds from[/b] means the Father and the Son where before the Spirit or that the Spirit was created or is not God. I see 'proceeds' as simply 'sent'.

2) Miss H answers this.

3) I think argument # 3 hinges on argument # 2. Since the Spirit was there at creation, I see # 3 as invalid.

Good questions, though!!!!

[Miss Hepburn]

Before I was a Christian and reading the Bible and learned different "terms" - I had experiences of
the Holy Spirit all the time throughout my life - usually with my mouth dropped, stunned, in awe and totally in reverent gratitude.
I just said or thought these experiences were "God".
Then, I saw, "OHHH, this is what Christians are calling the Holy Spirit, oh."

I now see it is the "Spirit" of God that visited so many many times.

Tomato, tomahto, to me. ---Now say that fast.

Miss Hepburn

Edited February 22, 2011 by Miss Hepburn

[1catholic]

I could be totally off on this but here it goes....


The existence of the Father and Son persons of God requires the existence of the Spirit. If the Spirit is the love between the Father and the Son, His late arrival would mean a lack of love in God.

also... To say that proceeds infers/implies after assumes a start.

God's being is unselfish love. For God to be God requires the eternality of all three persons.

[kafka]

1) The Procession of the Son from the Father, and the Spirit, primarily from the Father and secondarily from Son, is the Divine Nature, which is One Divine Eternal Act. In other words the Procession is the Divine Nature which is also Eternity, Love, Justice, Mercy, and so on. God is absolutely and utterly simple. In God being is doing and doing is being. If Procession could be said to be an Act, this Act is the Existence of God.

2) The Spirit is mentioned in the second verse of Genesis:

{1:2} But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters. (Miss Hepburn got there first)

3) Prior to creation God existed. God is Father, Son, Spirit. Time proceeds from the original something God created out of nothing. Without some space, there would be no time and by space I mean matter, there is no space where there exists no matter. God is One and Three.

There is nothing which exists that was not created by Father-Son-Spirit in the One Eternal Act which God Is. And no the Holy Spirit is not creation. He is a Divine Person. He is Uncreated. The Spirit is sent forth by the Father and the Son into creation guiding all things to their completion, but this sending forth, and guiding is One and the same Act of God creating all things, which is One and the Act of saving the human race, which is One and the same Act of sending the just to Heaven and the unjust to Hell and so on, because God is One Divine Eternal Act. Pure Act as Aquinas says. And this Act is Three in One.

Edited February 27, 2011 by kafka