Please Help Me Debunk This...its Regarding Salvation...

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1297870714' post='2212960']
Yes, the Baptist guy you're talking with is wrong about Baptism. His understanding of the sacramental economy is focused on the actions we perform since he doesn't believe grace is given through those actions. Still, he is right to believe that faith (given by grace alone) is the absolute necessary gift to be saved. Christ alone merited it and it is God's to give, ordinarily in Baptism, extraordinarily by any other means God wills. The Catholic Church believes in salvation by grace alone at her core, even more so than any Protestant.
[/quote]

Don't you think that part of Faith would be believing that Baptism is necessary for salvation? After all, it is what Christ says in scripture.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297879171' post='2213000']
Don't you think that part of Faith would be believing that Baptism is necessary for salvation? After all, it is what Christ says in scripture.
[/quote]

The faith necessary for salvation is faith in Christ. Baptism is definitely part of the Faith, but we don't believe Baptism saves in itself any more than we believe a priest or bishop has any power in and of themselves. It's all centered around Christ.

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1297908469' post='2213140']
The faith necessary for salvation is faith in Christ. Baptism is definitely part of the Faith, but we don't believe Baptism saves in itself any more than we believe a priest or bishop has any power in and of themselves. It's all centered around Christ.

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!"

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43
[/quote]

It seems like you are walking a thin line between the Catholic Church and Sola Fide. Let me ask you...do you think that if someone was never baptized but believed in Jesus Christ that they would go to heaven immediately after death? I don't think so. You know why? Because they did not obey him. By not getting baptized they did not obey Jesus Christ. Obedience is a requirement for salvation as well. Not just belief. Even the Demons believe in Jesus Christ. Im gonna stretch this out even further and say that even if the believer loved Jesus Christ he/she still would not go to Heaven immediately after his/her death.

I am not going against the Catechism at all by saying this. Yes, of course, Faith in Jesus Christ is required for salvation. But so is Baptism.

Edited February 17, 2011 by infinitelord1

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297910576' post='2213150']
It seems like you are walking a thin line between the Catholic Church and Sola Fide. Let me ask you...do you think that if someone was never baptized but believed in Jesus Christ that they would go to heaven immediately after death? I don't think so. You know why? Because they did not obey him. By not getting baptized they did not obey Jesus Christ. Obedience is a requirement for salvation as well. Not just belief. Even the Demons believe in Jesus Christ. Im gonna stretch this out even further and say that even if the believer loved Jesus Christ he/she still would not go to Heaven immediately after his/her death.

I am not going against the Catechism at all by saying this. Yes, of course, Faith in Jesus Christ is required for salvation. But so is Baptism.
[/quote]

The judgment of whether a person would go to heaven immediately after death is only for God to make. Whether we require purification from an inordinate love for the created world is a matter of sanctification. I'm only emphasizing that what your Baptist friend is saying about justification is not out of line with Catholic teaching: that the absolute minimum requirement for justification is faith (given by grace alone).

When it comes to sanctification, yes, there much disparity between Catholics and Evangelicals, and fortunately much we can learn from each other.

From CCC 1257, "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament." I know we can debate how the Church may define who has the possibility of asking for Baptism. Still, we know it isn't in God's nature to hold people accountable for what they do not know, which extends beyond strict intellectual knowledge to a sound belief and trust in God that should be the fruit of Truth. In other words, people can know about Baptism, yet remain ignorant of the spiritual reality.

A common error is to focus inordinately on the sacrament and lose sight of the unseen grace given in it. This causes Christian parents to despair over an infant child's life who dies before Baptism. In despairing, they are showing that their hope is in the sacrament itself rather than in Christ who gave us the sacrament. This isn't true knowledge of the sacrament. On the other hand, as seen in the Reformation, many Christians deny Baptism alltogether until the age of reason, because they do not have eyes to see the grace Christ is giving. They only see the physical action.