Please Help Me Debunk This...its Regarding Salvation...

[infinitelord1]

I made a statement in a debate that Baptism is the minimum requirement for salvation. Here is the response that I have received...


‎"Baptism is the minimum requirement for Salvation'' Ok, I'm starting with this one and am going to debunk it. Luke 19:8-9, Zaccheus confessed Jesus as Lord, and repented of his misdeeds ie: stealing money from others. As a chief tax collecter he (Zaccheus) was very rich Luke 19:2, No where in these scriptures does it say anything about Zaccheus getting baptized and then being saved by Jesus, All he did was acknowledge Jesus for who He was and confessed his sin and repented, Zaccheus said I give half of my goods to the poor and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold. The reason he mentioned false accusation was because he had done that very thing, and Zaccheus knew he could not lie to the one who searches hearts, so he made his confession right there, and Jesus said Today salvation has come to this house because he is also a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost. We are not saved by batism, Nor is it a mininum requirement, but it is only by grace through faith in Christ that can save. " Romans 10:9,10 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, You will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". And if you read on in Romans 10:13, For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I really hope you can see this for yourself and that there is nothing we can do, baptism or otherwise, Nor works, but its a simple trust in the Lord Jesus and that He and only Him, can save us. Baptism is the outward expression that in submersion, We leave the old man there and raise up to a new life in Christ.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'd guess even the CC doesn't teach that baptism is the minimal standard of salvation. just look at the examples he gave ya.
that guy owned ya.
unless ya try to squeeze in baptism by desire, as a twist. but that's just playin games.

even if as a general rule his fundamental premise of 'faith alone' is incorrect, even by CC standars, he bible verses he quoted demonstrate that sometimes there's even lower standards for whatever the situation, 'trust in the lord and ye will be saved' etc. and, the CC says all these other lesser standards, such as 'meant well' 'didn't know any better' 'baptism by desire' etc etc.

Edited February 15, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297718959' post='2212390']
I made a statement in a debate that Baptism is the minimum requirement for salvation. Here is the response that I have received...


‎"Baptism is the minimum requirement for Salvation'' Ok, I'm starting with this one and am going to debunk it. Luke 19:8-9, Zaccheus confessed Jesus as Lord, and repented of his misdeeds ie: stealing money from others. As a chief tax collecter he (Zaccheus) was very rich Luke 19:2, No where in these scriptures does it say anything about Zaccheus getting baptized and then being saved by Jesus, All he did was acknowledge Jesus for who He was and confessed his sin and repented, Zaccheus said I give half of my goods to the poor and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold. The reason he mentioned false accusation was because he had done that very thing, and Zaccheus knew he could not lie to the one who searches hearts, so he made his confession right there, and Jesus said Today salvation has come to this house because he is also a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost. We are not saved by batism, Nor is it a mininum requirement, but it is only by grace through faith in Christ that can save. " Romans 10:9,10 That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, You will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". And if you read on in Romans 10:13, For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I really hope you can see this for yourself and that there is nothing we can do, baptism or otherwise, Nor works, but its a simple trust in the Lord Jesus and that He and only Him, can save us. Baptism is the outward expression that in submersion, We leave the old man there and raise up to a new life in Christ.
[/quote]


Wait, are you two debating over sola fide? The belief that faith alone can save?
He's right in that Baptism (and any work, really) is an outward sign of something more fundamentally important (a love of God, a change of heart). But, if he's also trying to say that works therefore are completely unnecessary, then he's wrong.
Is this what you are debating over?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297731601' post='2212452']
Wait, are you two debating over sola fide? The belief that faith alone can save?
He's right in that Baptism (and any work, really) is an outward sign of something more fundamentally important (a love of God, a change of heart). But, if he's also trying to say that works therefore are completely unnecessary, then he's wrong.
Is this what you are debating over?
[/quote]

I made the point that Baptism is necessary for salvation. This is how he responded. I think what he is getting at is that alls you need to do is believe in Jesus Christ. And if this is true, then Baptism would not be necessary for salvation. Honestly I think I can debunk this on my own with the following....

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

I think what John was trying to convey in John 3:16 was more than just believing because of what James says in James 2:19 as well as what 1 Corinthians 13:13 and Hebrews 11:1 says….

[James 2:19]- 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
[1 Corinthians 13:13]- "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
[Hebrews 11:1]- "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

Also consider this…

The word "Believe" in English translates to πιστεύω pronounced "Pistevo" in Ancient Greek.
πιστεύω=believe, rely on,obey

So it is very very possible that what the Author was trying to convey in John 3:16 is much more than to Believe. He could have been saying that we must believe, Rely on, and Obey Jesus Christ.

And part of Obeying him is agreeing with what he says...

[John 3:5]- "5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

[Romans 6:3-4]- "3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."


Also, Consider Church Father Teachings...

Tertullian

No one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Council of Carthage VII

And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Edited February 15, 2011 by infinitelord1

[LouisvilleFan]

It's difficult to win an argument when you're both right.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1297745180' post='2212493']
It's difficult to win an argument when you're both right.
[/quote]

He's saying Baptism is not necessary because the only thing you need to do is Believe in Jesus Christ. He is under the assumption that you do not need to be baptized.

I am arguing that Baptism is necessary. And there is more involved than just simply believing in Jesus Christ. We must also Obey, Have Faith, Have Hope, and Have Love for Jesus Christ. Not just Believe.

-or-

it is very possible that by saying "believe" it is implying Obedience, Faith, Hope and Love.

Yeah I guess he is arguing from a Sola Fide standpoint.

Edited February 15, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Ed Normile]

Am I wrong, or in the examples he provided Jesus personally forgave them and promised they would go to heaven, "salvation is yours" ? Baptism is neccessary to remove original sin, its not just an act or a work of man but a Sacrament needed to remove the sin we all are born with. One does not get into heaven in a state of sin, but of course if Jesus foragve you after hearing your confession and promised you salvation that would be a different story.

ed

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297731601' post='2212452']
Wait, are you two debating over sola fide? The belief that faith alone can save?
He's right in that Baptism (and any work, really) is an outward sign of something more fundamentally important (a love of God, a change of heart). But, if he's also trying to say that works therefore are completely unnecessary, then he's wrong.
Is this what you are debating over?
[/quote]

It seems to me that he is arguing from a sola fide standpoint. And in doing so He is saying that Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Edited February 15, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Archaeology cat]

Something to remember is that some Protestants think of baptism as purely symbolic and not at all efficacious. With that mindset, they would think of it as a work that we do, and therefore not something that could be made necessary for salvation. However, we believe that God acts through the baptismal waters to truly cleanse us spiritually, to wash away sin. There's also Mark 16:16: He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

And the fact that Jesus commands baptism. Why would He do that if it wasn't necessary? Now, we know that God isn't necessarily bound by the Sacraments, so there's baptism of desire as well, but normally baptism is necessary.

[Catherine Therese]

Its almost as if this person is proposing a negative theology of sorts. He's talking about what the Bible DIDNT say, what the Bible appears to have OMITTED, to justify his position.

Firstly, to infinitelord1, I don't think he's simply saying that you only have to believe in Jesus Christ at all, as you have suggested. Satan believes in Jesus Christ yet he will never be saved, that ship has sailed for him. Most protestants see this distinction and claim that 'faith' is the almost-cliched 'all you have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as your personal Lord and Saviour' to get around this point. Satan believes in Jesus Christ but is not in a position to accept Him as his Lord and Saviour.

The Church DOES teach that we need Baptism for salvation, that it is through this sacrament that we receive the sanctifying grace and that indelible character on our soul that marks us as a child of God. HOWEVER, it can also be acknowledged that there are many people of good will who either never encounter the Truth and therefore cannot be charged with having rejected it, or for those who HAVE come into contact with the Truth of Catholicism, they have had it presented to them so poorly that it is understandable that what was Truth was not recognisable as Truth and in good conscience they have aligned themselves with other systems in good faith. Of course there are any number of reasons why a person may not be baptised. The Church in her wisdom entrusts these souls to the mercy of God. The Church in her infinite wisdom is prepared to acknowledge when she does not have all the answers. None can know the mind of God, and the Church entrusts the unbaptised to the mercy of God. For those people of good will, who is to say that God in His infinite mercy, infinite justice and omnipotence will not find another way to bring these souls into His Kingdom and into a knowledge of the Truth?

The reason that the Church teaches that we, believers, need Baptism for Salvation is because that is the way that Jesus taught us. Jesus was baptised - He led by example. We don't hear in Scripture of a baptism of Zaccheus but that is not evidence that it didn't happen - that is only evidence that it wasn't documented in Scripture in the even that it MAY have happened. Throughout the Acts of the Apostles we see examples of people being baptised. If this was an extraneous practice why would the Apostles have bothered?

You could suggest to your protestant friend that rather than looking what Scripture DIDNT document, lets look at what Scripture DID document and take our cue from that?

Finally - all I have provided above is a way to engage directly with what he has argued. This is barely the tip of the iceberg. REALLY your friend needs to know that there isn't an easy sound byte that answers his question. Protestants seem to love sound bytes. The theology of Baptism can only be understood in the broader context of the theology of Sacrament. This Sacramental Theology needs to be understood in the context of Salvation History. This Soteriology can only be understood in the context of ALL of Scripture, in its completion, not some 2-line quote that is taken completely out of context.

There is much to learn on it. The Catechism is the ideal place to start. Its worth following some of the footnotes in the CCC to Scripture and to the Church Fathers so that YOU understand it in a really robust way. THEN you'll be able to meet him where he's at and draw on the broader Scriptural Tradition rather than little snippets that may or may not be context-dependent.

If he's serious about Scripture and about Truth then he'll be prepared to do the hard work of sitting down and just working through it until he either proves you wrong or discovers that he's wrong.

God bless and good luck with this one!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297745515' post='2212496']
He's saying Baptism is not necessary because the only thing you need to do is Believe in Jesus Christ. He is under the assumption that you do not need to be baptized.

I am arguing that Baptism is necessary. And there is more involved than just simply believing in Jesus Christ. We must also Obey, Have Faith, Have Hope, and Have Love for Jesus Christ. Not just Believe.

-or-

it is very possible that by saying "believe" it is implying Obedience, Faith, Hope and Love.

Yeah I guess he is arguing from a Sola Fide standpoint.
[/quote]

He is right according to the CCC here:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

Of course, Baptism is fundamental sacrament of faith, but is it absolutely necessary? Almost... "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament" (from paragraph 1257). The grace of God is not bound to His sacraments; ergo, when push comes to shove, what is absolutely necessary for salvation?

Grace alone.

Of course, Baptism is also necessary. We can safely say both are necessary. If you read through the Catechism on Baptism and faith, it's interesting to notice how frequently they are mentioned together.

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1297761709' post='2212521']
Something to remember is that some Protestants think of baptism as purely symbolic and not at all efficacious.
[/quote]

That belief is held primarily by Reformed/Baptist/non-denominational Protestants. Most Protestants (going strictly by numbers of adherents worldwide) actually do believe that Baptism is a sacrament that literally cleanses a soul from all sin.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297777601' post='2212552']
Its almost as if this person is proposing a negative theology of sorts. He's talking about what the Bible DIDNT say, what the Bible appears to have OMITTED, to justify his position.

Firstly, to infinitelord1, I don't think he's simply saying that you only have to believe in Jesus Christ at all, as you have suggested. Satan believes in Jesus Christ yet he will never be saved, that ship has sailed for him. Most protestants see this distinction and claim that 'faith' is the almost-cliched 'all you have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as your personal Lord and Saviour' to get around this point. Satan believes in Jesus Christ but is not in a position to accept Him as his Lord and Saviour.

The Church DOES teach that we need Baptism for salvation, that it is through this sacrament that we receive the sanctifying grace and that indelible character on our soul that marks us as a child of God. HOWEVER, it can also be acknowledged that there are many people of good will who either never encounter the Truth and therefore cannot be charged with having rejected it, or for those who HAVE come into contact with the Truth of Catholicism, they have had it presented to them so poorly that it is understandable that what was Truth was not recognisable as Truth and in good conscience they have aligned themselves with other systems in good faith. Of course there are any number of reasons why a person may not be baptised. The Church in her wisdom entrusts these souls to the mercy of God. The Church in her infinite wisdom is prepared to acknowledge when she does not have all the answers. None can know the mind of God, and the Church entrusts the unbaptised to the mercy of God. For those people of good will, who is to say that God in His infinite mercy, infinite justice and omnipotence will not find another way to bring these souls into His Kingdom and into a knowledge of the Truth?

The reason that the Church teaches that we, believers, need Baptism for Salvation is because that is the way that Jesus taught us. Jesus was baptised - He led by example. We don't hear in Scripture of a baptism of Zaccheus but that is not evidence that it didn't happen - that is only evidence that it wasn't documented in Scripture in the even that it MAY have happened. Throughout the Acts of the Apostles we see examples of people being baptised. If this was an extraneous practice why would the Apostles have bothered?

You could suggest to your protestant friend that rather than looking what Scripture DIDNT document, lets look at what Scripture DID document and take our cue from that?

Finally - all I have provided above is a way to engage directly with what he has argued. This is barely the tip of the iceberg. REALLY your friend needs to know that there isn't an easy sound byte that answers his question. Protestants seem to love sound bytes. The theology of Baptism can only be understood in the broader context of the theology of Sacrament. This Sacramental Theology needs to be understood in the context of Salvation History. This Soteriology can only be understood in the context of ALL of Scripture, in its completion, not some 2-line quote that is taken completely out of context.

There is much to learn on it. The Catechism is the ideal place to start. Its worth following some of the footnotes in the CCC to Scripture and to the Church Fathers so that YOU understand it in a really robust way. THEN you'll be able to meet him where he's at and draw on the broader Scriptural Tradition rather than little snippets that may or may not be context-dependent.

If he's serious about Scripture and about Truth then he'll be prepared to do the hard work of sitting down and just working through it until he either proves you wrong or discovers that he's wrong.

God bless and good luck with this one!
[/quote]

I agree with what you are saying here.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1297825196' post='2212819']
He is right according to the CCC here:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43

Of course, Baptism is fundamental sacrament of faith, but is it absolutely necessary? Almost... "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament" (from paragraph 1257). The grace of God is not bound to His sacraments; ergo, when push comes to shove, what is absolutely necessary for salvation?

Grace alone.

Of course, Baptism is also necessary. We can safely say both are necessary. If you read through the Catechism on Baptism and faith, it's interesting to notice how frequently they are mentioned together.



That belief is held primarily by Reformed/Baptist/non-denominational Protestants. Most Protestants (going strictly by numbers of adherents worldwide) actually do believe that Baptism is a sacrament that literally cleanses a soul from all sin.
[/quote]

Yes believing in Jesus Christ is necessary. So is obeying him and obeying what he says in scripture. So is Loving him and what He did for us. So is resting on Him.

Yeah even the demons believe in Jesus Christ. But they certainly don't obey Him. They also do not Love Him. They could care less what He says in Scripture.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' timestamp='1297825196' post='2212819']
That belief is held primarily by Reformed/Baptist/non-denominational Protestants. Most Protestants (going strictly by numbers of adherents worldwide) actually do believe that Baptism is a sacrament that literally cleanses a soul from all sin.
[/quote]
I know. Given that I was raised Baptist and primarily knew other Baptists, this is a belief I encountered most often, and one I still encounter with some family. Thus why I mentioned it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297827657' post='2212832']
Yes believing in Jesus Christ is necessary. So is obeying him and obeying what he says in scripture. So is Loving him and what He did for us. So is resting on Him.[/quote]

Yes, the Baptist guy you're talking with is wrong about Baptism. His understanding of the sacramental economy is focused on the actions we perform since he doesn't believe grace is given through those actions. Still, he is right to believe that faith (given by grace alone) is the absolute necessary gift to be saved. Christ alone merited it and it is God's to give, ordinarily in Baptism, extraordinarily by any other means God wills. The Catholic Church believes in salvation by grace alone at her core, even more so than any Protestant.

Edited February 16, 2011 by LouisvilleFan