Luke 23:34

[sixpence]

So, I was at someones house, and an argument broke out with two people proclaiming that if you are not a Christian you are going to Hell. Period. They cited John 14:6 ("...no one can come to the Father, except through me...") as their evidence. I was wondering if Luke 23:34 ("Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.") could be offered as evidence that Christ may still forgive people that do not recognize Him for who He is. As far as I can tell, it seems like the people who actually saw Him on earth (such as the people He is forgiving in Luke) should be held more accountable for not believing, than modern people, but what do I know?

Thoughts??

[dairygirl4u2c]

"no one can come to the father except through me". logically and literally, that doesn't exclude non-chrsitians from being saved through Jesus.
the bottom line is that many will find verses that say 'jesus saves', but they all run into that same conclusion.

the real test, is where the bible says how to be condemned, in relation to Jesus. there are only three verses that I can find, and they all require that the persons reject what they know to be true. in that sense 'forgive them for they know not what they do' is exactly on point, cause it's a matter of knowledge and intentionally rejecting, or not.

the three verses i am referring to are: at the end of Mark where he says to go forth baptizing and those who reject will be condemned, where Jesus says in John "unless you believe I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins" to people who were masters of the law and what Jesus said in his life, and around the infamous John 3:16 wjere he says God so loved that world. and those who do not accept will be condemned. it even goes on to say what condemnation means, namely rejecting the light cause your ways are evil. some people don't reject the light, not because they are evil so much as they never knew.
granted, all have sinned, but the reason they reject matters- because your ways are evil like all else, or because you rejected something you knew was true.

[thessalonian]

To Dairy's point, Luke 12 says with regard to the person who did well and then fell away from doing well he said he will be treated with the unbelievers because it is clear he knew what was right and turned from it. But then interestingly it says "but to the one who DID NOT KNOW he will receive a light beating". The indication is that those in true ignorance will be treated mercifully. Seems clear you have to turn from what you know to be true. The example of the good samaritan is a good one as well. Samaritans were not Christians or Jews. They did worship the God of Israel but as one of many gods. Yet this Samaritan was held high before the Jews as an example to be followed. It shows that one who is not explicitly Christian can do love the way God calls us to love.

[sixpence]

thanks for the helps

[AudreyGrace]

I always viewed Luke 23:34 as a verse that supports praying on behalf of others/ for the conversion of sinners. I never really looked at it this way... interesting.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1297119260' post='2209841']
("...no one can come to the Father, except through me...")
Thoughts??
[/quote]

You left out a very important piece. "I am the way, the truth and the life..." Meaning that people who live by Jesus teaching have him in their hearts. They live by the truth that he taught and live lives concurrent with the one he taught and thus have followed his way to God. His truth is the mediator between people and God. They may not have been taught or aware of his name and who they follow.

Thus the Catholic teaching is


[quote][b]'For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognised as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation.'[/b]

[/quote]