Nihil Obstat Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297825587' post='2212820'] Oh, did you write that? [/quote] I slaved away for precious seconds to place the link in my bookmarks. I wish I wrote that one, but I'm not that gifted theologically speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297828936' post='2212839'] I slaved away for precious seconds to place the link in my bookmarks. I wish I wrote that one, but I'm not that gifted theologically speaking. [/quote] That's probably only because you waste too much time with anime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297873902' post='2212977'] That's probably only because you waste too much time with anime! [/quote] Hey now. Right now I only watch 20 minutes a week. First because I'm only watching one show that is ongoing, and second, because I'm writing a paper on Hegel (I hate him with a fiery passion) and studying for an accounting midterm. Edited February 16, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) I liked this one example in particular, it's the Post Communion for the 3rd Sunday of Lent in the Ordinary Form: [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/03/reason-64675-for-the-new-corrected-translation/"]http://wdtprs.com/bl...ed-translation/[/url] [color="#333333"][font="Georgia,"][b]NEW CORRECTED ICEL VERSION[/b]: [i]As we receive the pledge of things yet hidden in heaven and are nourished while still on earth with the Bread that comes from on high, we humbly entreat you, O Lord, that what is being brought about in us in mystery may come to true completion[/i]. [b]LAME-DUCK ICEL STILL IN USE:[/b] [i]Lord, in sharing this sacrament may we receive your forgiveness and be brought together in unity and peace.[/i] [i] [/i] [color="#000000"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"]It's for real, check it out.[/size][/font][/color] [/font][/color] Edited March 27, 2011 by ExCorde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 i tend to get lost in Mass language wars, so i try to avoid them as much as possible...I will follow whatever the Church approves, and from what I know, the vernacular is approved, as well as Latin, so, I'm never quite sure what the big deal is when peeps get overly upset over the language of the Mass...and now, peeps are getting upset over the new translation... why can't peeps just be happy we have MASS, period? ...according to St. Paul, Heaven speaks a language we all know nothing of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenDeMaria Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301239931' post='2223731'] i tend to get lost in Mass language wars, so i try to avoid them as much as possible...I will follow whatever the Church approves, and from what I know, the vernacular is approved, as well as Latin, so, I'm never quite sure what the big deal is when peeps get overly upset over the language of the Mass...and now, peeps are getting upset over the new translation... why can't peeps just be happy we have MASS, period? ...according to St. Paul, Heaven speaks a language we all know nothing of... [/quote] In a way, I completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301239931' post='2223731'] i tend to get lost in Mass language wars, so i try to avoid them as much as possible...I will follow whatever the Church approves, and from what I know, the vernacular is approved, as well as Latin, so, I'm never quite sure what the big deal is when peeps get overly upset over the language of the Mass...and now, peeps are getting upset over the new translation... why can't peeps just be happy we have MASS, period? ...according to St. Paul, Heaven speaks a language we all know nothing of... [/quote] Doesn't God deserve the absolute greatest we can possibly give Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301253306' post='2223759'] Doesn't God deserve the absolute greatest we can possibly give Him? [/quote] but that's just the point, the absolute greatest can only come from God, through Holy Mother Church, which has provided us with the means to worship God in Latin and in the vernacular....everything else is just man's puny opposition and puny opinions..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301258204' post='2223769'] but that's just the point, the absolute greatest can only come from God, through Holy Mother Church, which has provided us with the means to worship God in Latin and in the vernacular....everything else is just man's puny opposition and puny opinions..... [/quote] We have received the ultimate gift from God, however in return we must offer everything of ourselves. I'm not talking about the Mass itself, I'm talking about our approach to it. Do we approach it saying "the vernacular is allowed, therefore nothing else matters", or do we approach it saying "how can I participate in the Mass with the utmost reverence and fear of God? How can I inspire greater reverence and fear of the Lord in my brothers and sisters?"? Before God we are nothing, but that doesn't mean that we offer nothing to God. We offer our very best. If we hold anything back, we are no better than the Pharisees whose prayers were vain and empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1301258619' post='2223770'] We have received the ultimate gift from God, however in return we must offer everything of ourselves. I'm not talking about the Mass itself, I'm talking about our approach to it. Do we approach it saying "the vernacular is allowed, therefore nothing else matters", or do we approach it saying "how can I participate in the Mass with the utmost reverence and fear of God? How can I inspire greater reverence and fear of the Lord in my brothers and sisters?"? Before God we are nothing, but that doesn't mean that we offer nothing to God. We offer our very best. If we hold anything back, we are no better than the Pharisees whose prayers were vain and empty. [/quote] Hmmm....I'm not sure if anyone is saying that "vernacular is allowed, therefore nothing else matters..." I know I'm not...what I am saying is that already, peeps are complaining about the changes in translation...and all I can be is about the complaints... Holy Mother Church has given us the means to worship God, no matter who you are, a "traddie" a "liberal" or a regular shmo Catholic like me, EVERYBODY has to give of themselves fully to God...i don't care what philosophy you follow..... What is 100% sure, is what God has given us through our Church, if we stray from those precepts, then we've got something to complain about, if not, then NO ONE really has the right to judge the way others go about in their Catholic worship of God.... Edited March 27, 2011 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301259642' post='2223775'] Hmmm....I'm not sure if anyone is saying that "vernacular is allowed, therefore nothing else matters..." I know I'm not...what I am saying is that already, peeps are complaining about the changes in translation...and all I can be is about the complaints... Holy Mother Church has given us the means to worship God, no matter who you are, a "traddie" a "liberal" or a regular shmo Catholic like me, EVERYBODY has to give of themselves fully to God...i don't care what philosophy you follow..... What is 100% sure, is what God has given us through our Church, if we stray from those precepts, then we've got something to complain about, if not, then NO ONE really has the right to judge the way others go about in their Catholic worship of God.... [/quote] [quote]What is 100% sure, is what God has given us through our Church, if we stray from those precepts, then we've got something to complain about, if not, then NO ONE really has the right to judge the way others go about in their Catholic worship of God.... [/quote] Judge, no, but how about push for reverence, and prayerfulness, and holiness? If I believe that using liturgical Latin is best to foster these, wouldn't I be neglecting my duty as a Christian if I didn't act as an advocate for it? If I see reverence lacking, shouldn't I try to find solutions? Our faith isn't simply a personal one. It is Universal, and we worship as part of the universal Church. Shouldn't I then share my insight? Share what helps me offer my best to God? If I have reason to believe that many people could be led to serve God more richly in certain ways, shouldn't I express that to them? Edited March 27, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 On a purely practical level, yes, the Church has given us means by which to worship God. That's the Mass. The old (current) translation can hardly even be called a paraphrase of the Mass. This is most certainly not acceptable. At the absolute least, a faithful translation is something that should be considered a given. With what we're using now........ like I said, hardly even a poor paraphrase. That is the work of Man, not of God. We can offer far more. Opposition to the new translation is selfish, misplaced, and petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1301259642' post='2223775'] Hmmm....I'm not sure if anyone is saying that "vernacular is allowed, therefore nothing else matters..." I know I'm not...what I am saying is that already, peeps are complaining about the changes in translation...and all I can be is about the complaints... Holy Mother Church has given us the means to worship God, no matter who you are, a "traddie" a "liberal" or a regular shmo Catholic like me, EVERYBODY has to give of themselves fully to God...i don't care what philosophy you follow..... What is 100% sure, is what God has given us through our Church, if we stray from those precepts, then we've got something to complain about, if not, then NO ONE really has the right to judge the way others go about in their Catholic worship of God.... [/quote] Great post! It is the Church's duty, not ours, to determine what is proper worship. And I'm glad - I trust the Bishops of the Church much more than I trust DS or Vee! Edited March 28, 2011 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1301281506' post='2223826'] Great post! It is the Church's duty, not ours, to determine what is proper worship. And I'm glad - I trust the Bishops of the Church much more than I trust DS or Vee! [/quote] Oh good. I trust what the Church says also. “The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism in respect of the Sacred Liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded. This notwithstanding, the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with laws and rubrics, deserve reproof. It has pained Us grievously to note, (...) that such innovations are actually being introduced, not merely in minor details but in matters of major importance as well. They are, in point of fact, those who make use of the vernacular in the celebration of the august Eucharistic Sacrifice; those who transfer certain feast days - which have been appointed and established after mature deliberation - to other dates; those finally who delete from the prayer books approved for public use the sacred texts of the Old Testament, deeming them little suited and inopportune for modern times. The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth.” (Pius XII: Encyclical Mediator Dei, November 20, 1947) “ If anyone says that the Mass should be celebrated in the vernacular only, let him be Anathema . “ - Council of Trent (Session XXII, Canon 9) Pope Pius VI condemned the notion that the mass should said “in the vernacular” as “rash, offensive to pious ears, insulting to the Church, and favorable to the charges of heretics against it” (Dz 1533). St. Alphonus Liguori, in writing on this issue states: “The innovators contended that mass should be celebrated only in the vulgar tongue: Luther left this matter to the choice of the celebrant (lib. De form. Missae.) but the Catholic Church has, for several reasons, ordained the contrary: for, (St. Robert) Bellarmine justly observes (de missa c. 11) that the oblation of the mass consists more in the act which is performed, than in the words: since, without offering him in words, the very action by which the victim, Jesus Christ, is presented on the altar, is a true oblation. For the consecration, the words are, indeed, necessary: but these are said, not to instruct the people, but to offer the sacrifice. And even the words of oblation are not directed to the people, but to God, who understands every language. Even the Jews, in their public functions, used the Hebrew language, although it had ceased to be their vulgar tongue after the Babylonian captivity. Besides, it has been always the custom in the east to celebrate in the Greek or Chaldaic, and in the west, in the Latin Language: this custom existed after these languages ceased to be commonly understood in the western nations. The use of the Latin tongue was necessary in the west, in order to preserve the communication among the churches: had not this custom existed, a German could not celebrate in France. Besides, it frequently happens that the words of one language cannot express the full force of certain phrases in another tongue: hence, if in different countries, mass were celebrated in different languages, it would be difficult to preserve the identity of sense. The use of the common language was also necessary for the constant uniformity in the rite prescribed by the Church in the administration of the sacraments, and as a preventive of schisms in the Church: great confusion would arise from the translation of the Roman missal into the language of various countries. Hence, the Bishops of Grance unanimously supplicated Alexander VII., in 1661, to suppress a translation of the Roman missal (to be used by the celebrant) into the French language, which was published by Doctor Voisin, in 1660. On the 12th of January, in the same year, the Pope condemned it. …. Besides, if the priest of every country were to celebrate in the vernacular language, they would not be able to communicate with each other in different nations. Moreover, it is not right that the people should hear, every day, the mysteries of our faith in the vulgar tongue, without an explanation from the minister of religion, accommodated to their capacity.” – Exposition and Defense of all the points of Faith discussed and defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Dublin 1846, Pg. 302-303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 All those saints of the past would bow to the decisions of the current Popes today, Nihil... Whatever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven, and what is held bound is held bound.... Sorry, but I'll stick to the directive of the present Popes, cos, I don't live in the past....I live NOW, I live TODAY, and Holy Mother Church TODAY allows for worship in the vernacular.... like i said previously....everything else are the puny opinions of men.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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