tinytherese Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] Oh wow, if only Rexi were around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1297475783' post='2211544'] Oh wow, if only Rexi were around! [/quote] No need. I think I'm the resident traddy around these parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297490836' post='2211613'] No need. I think I'm the resident traddy around these parts. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1297547703' post='2211769'] [/quote] One of them, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] Why was latin selected as the language in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1297561924' post='2211840'] Why was latin selected as the language in the first place? [/quote] As far as I understand, because it was the language of philosophy and theology around Rome at the right moment. Right place at the right time. Same reason Coptic is the language of the Church in Alexandria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297490836' post='2211613'] No need. I think I'm the [b]resident traddy[/b] around these parts. [/quote] [img]http://www.comingsoon.net/gallery/10055/residentevilos.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 If the first half of this little dialogue is, "The Lord be with [i]you[/i]," it makes sense to me that the response should be the in-kind, "And also with [i]you[/i]." It seems unbalanced for Speaker A to focus on [i]you[/i] and Speaker B to focs on [i]your spirit[/i]. But whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 [quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297611176' post='2211943'] [img]http://www.comingsoon.net/gallery/10055/residentevilos.jpg[/img] [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist_in_residence"]Artist in Residence[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297563854' post='2211849'] As far as I understand, because it was the language of philosophy and theology around Rome at the right moment. Right place at the right time. Same reason Coptic is the language of the Church in Alexandria. [/quote] Latin was used b/c it was the most common language, just like English is today. So there is good reason to have the liturgy in English. Edited February 14, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Yes, Latin was the vernacular. At the time Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate, that was primarily what it was. Though it was also the language of philosophy and theology in later years, replacing Greek in that role (at least in the West). It remained the language of liturgy even after Latin was no longer the language 'of the people', except in cases like the Eastern Churches, where the language of the people was also used for liturgy. Sts. Cyril and Methodias translated the liturgy as part of their evangelization efforts. In other places, Latin was retained even when it wasn't the language of the people evangelized (Ireland, the Germanic and Norse peoples). There is certainly precedent for using Latin even when the people are wholly ignorant of the Latin language. In these days of widespread literacy, at least people have the option of reading along in their own language; that was not the case for most of Christian history. Anyone who was educated enough to read was also likely educated in Latin...but that was not your average person. Back in the day, you went 'to hear a mass'. The current argument is that Latin is a universal language for the Church, so that wherever you go in the world, people can pray together. I understand that argument, but I'm happy to attend mass in the vernacular in a foreign country and just try to follow along as best I can. I've been to masses in Italian, Spanish, German and Polish. Sure, I didn't understand everything as well as if it were in English. But to be honest, they were no more confusing than mass in Latin. The importance of a good translation would not be negated if the mass were said in Latin. Because even if the Latin were accurate, if the translation people were reading along to was not...errors would be introduced. The ideal would not just be having the mass in Latin, but having all Catholics educated in Latin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1297692888' post='2212266'] Latin was used b/c it was the most common language, just like English is today. So there is good reason to have the liturgy in English. [/quote] I am not opposed in theory to some use of the vernacular, but as the Church has always affirmed, Latin has pride of place in our rite. There is a couple reasons for this, most important being clarity and accuracy of expression, tradition, and sense of the sacred. I have a [url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/latina.htm"]great article[/url] here that lists a few reasons for using Latin within our rite: First reason: The concern for dogmatic unity. Second reason: The concern for stability. Third reason: The concern for Tradition. Fourth reason: The concern for universality. Fifth reason: Latin has many linguistic qualities. Sixth reason - Variety of Languages is the result of Sin Seventh Reason: The Example of Christ Himself "The Council of Trent summed up well the Church’s mind on Latin being the Language of Roman rite in the following words “ If anyone says that the Mass should be celebrated in the vernacular only, let him be Anathema . “ - Council of Trent (Session XXII, Canon 9) Again Pope Pius VI, condemned the notion that the mass should said “in the vernacular” as “rash, offensive to pious ears, insulting to the Church, and favorable to the charges of heretics against it” (Dz 1533)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Another good comment on the subject (from the same website as the first one I posted here): [list][*][b][url="http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/02/14/the-attacks-on-the-new-english-missal-are-the-last-expiring-gasp-of-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii/"]The attacks on the new English Missal are the last expiring gasp of the 'Spirit of Vatican II'[/url][/b][/list] Edited February 16, 2011 by ExCorde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297823845' post='2212816'] Another good comment on the subject (from the same website as the first one I posted here): [list][*][b][url="http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/02/14/the-attacks-on-the-new-english-missal-are-the-last-expiring-gasp-of-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii/"]The attacks on the new English Missal are the last expiring gasp of the 'Spirit of Vatican II'[/url][/b][/list] [/quote] Expiring gasp of the spirit of VII? The one and only instance where it's morally justified (even morally required) to take out the feeding tube and oxygen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297702229' post='2212298'] I have a [url="http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/latina.htm"]great article[/url] here that lists a few reasons for using Latin within our rite [/quote] Oh, did you write that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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