Lil Red Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297283940' post='2210652'] Agreed. Cam was telling me about how the modern phenomenon of bishop's conferences results from a poor understanding of collegiality. Yea, the USCCB website at least is very clear about what's going on. The CCCB is very opaque. [/quote] did you hear about them basically admitting they had no authority to order any individual bishop to do anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Here's a video Cam showed me: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkn7lkf9p18[/media] He followed up with this: The notion of collegiality as has presented since Vatican Council II (and just before) is a flawed interpretation. Collegiality occurs in the Catholic Church when the ordinary Magisterium speaks together in one voice, or as the "college" of bishops. This idea that there are "bodies of governance" in the Catholic Church is moot. Because as Voris says above, even if the USCCB comes to consensus, they still have to go to Rome for approval. The same holds true for all CCBs, even if they don't like it. The authentic understanding of collegiality is part of the split between East and West back in 1054. They didn't want to recognize the ordinary Magisterum and the Pope as head of that. They took the view which they have today, of autocephaly, which leads to all sorts of problems, heirarchical, theological, oecumenical, liturgical, etc...because the Church has never engaged in that, there have been far fewer issues regarding these issues. That is until 1965. Again, modernist misunderstanding of what collegiality is what is at the heart of the problem of the Church today. The ordinary Magisterium isn't a physical body, it is when the minds of all the Bishops come together in agreement over an issue. This manifests itself in one of two ways...a synodal statement from the Vatican or an Ecumenical Council. The extraordinary way it manifests is through "ex cathedra" statements from the Holy Father. Although that is exceedingly rare. Please don't think that I am equating the Orthodox idea of collegiality with the modernist idea which has inflitrated today's Roman Church. I am not. The Orthodox have an authentic understanding of collegiality, however, we as Catholics, still believe that it is a flawed notion, but not of the same nature as the modernist view which is prevalant today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCorde Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think it's a worthy reflection if we look at the term used to describe the "mini-colleges" of a nation's bishops: Conference. A conference is where you listen to each other and get yourself heard. It doesn't have to mean more than that. Now, to do or not do something about what any number of bishops is pushing for, that's a different matter. I think it does help, however, to keep in mind that a conference of bishops is just an expression of a voice - that may or may not be agreed upon by who else is really in charge, in this case the Roman Curia and the Pope. This has something to do with a proper understanding of "conscience" as well. I do acknowledge the risk of autocephaly but we're still kinda far from that. If communication is still an issue, which the Conferences helped with by improving the quality of input arriving at the Curia while reducing the number (1 per country), then it might be that some countries, like Canada, are just [i]too far[/i] away from Rome (in their heads and hearts, even more than physical distance). I blame Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I think the Spanish already uses the "And with y our Spirit" I remember going to one and and we had little missals. We responded, "Y con tu Espiritu" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I've already been saying "and with your spirit" for about 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='tnavarro61' timestamp='1297295066' post='2210703'] I think the Spanish already uses the "And with y our Spirit" I remember going to one and and we had little missals. We responded, "Y con tu Espiritu" [/quote] Yes, the Spanish have ALWAYS responded as such. So do the Polish... ...something screwed up the English from the get go....I believe it's called ICEL...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] I was waiting for someone else to say it.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well, a decently robust translation of the Latin is also effective, though I see your point. The first time I heard/noticed the 'and with your spirit' response was in Rome. I can't recall now if the response was done in Latin or Italian, but when I understood what was being said, I thought it was like the most amesome thing ever, and wished we could say it in English. And now (well, soon) we can. I've attended Polish and Spanish masses, but even following along with the missal in Polish, I have very little idea what means what - so I have to trust the English translation of the Polish . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] Watch out you could really start a spirited debate with talk like that! ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] Hoc est verum et nihili nisi verum Vah! ....denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur [size="1"]edited becuase I really don't speak latin, just a latin based language.[/size] Edited February 10, 2011 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1297341809' post='2210933'] you know, if we stuck with the latin, we wouldn't have this problem. [/quote] I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297359467' post='2210985'] I was waiting for someone else to say it.......... [/quote] sorry to disappoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I just have to trust the church is making a good translation because the only Latin I know is the scientific names of trees, and legal latin like corpus delicti. Not real helpful really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Latin is purrrrrdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now