Ed Normile Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Of course you could always kill the kids off! Or just sell them into slavery. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297291872' post='2210686'] A consummated marriage may have transpired if there are children, making an annulment argument a mute point. Since when can a catholic person be granted an annulment if this union has produced offspring? [/quote] However, an annulment means whether consumated or not, there was no marriage. The decree of annulment has nothing to do with whether one had children or not, they are not considered since the decision only concerns the state of the couple WHEN they got married, not ehat happens after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297299032' post='2210762'] Parents die, too, unfortunately. It's not a moot question. [/quote] death of a spouse is hardly the same as that of divorced parents. Calling a divorce, an annulment is merely semantics and politically correct nonsense. this tread reminds me of "Henry the eighth" and him murdering his wife because divorce was not legal or moral, and coincidently started the church of England. just saying Edited February 12, 2011 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I personally think children need a Mom and Dad in their lives. But I think it also depends as far as if you should do it.... If the prospective new Mom or Dad is Catholic and really wonderful, that is just what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297469745' post='2211528'] death of a spouse is hardly the same as that of divorced parents. Calling a divorce, an annulment is merely semantics and politically correct nonsense. [/quote] Isn't It Just a Catholic Rubber-Stamp on a Divorce? What Really Happens When Someone Petitions for an "Annulment" By Pete Vere and Jacqueline Rapp This Rock Volume 17, Number 5 May-June 2006 What does the Church do when a couple—or at least half of it—says "I do" but means "I don’t"? It seems to many people that with a little sleight of hand and a lot of money, the couple can be given a kind of do-over. But in reality, obtaining a declaration of nullity (annulment is a misnomer; the Church cannot "annul" a marriage) involves a rigorous legal procedure that gives that couple the opportunity to prove to a tribunal that a real marriage never took place. Marriage enjoys "the favor of the law," according to canon 1060 of the Code of Canon Law. In everyday language, this means that the Church assumes that a marriage is valid unless it is proven not to be. The wisdom behind canon 1060 is clear: Since no marriage is perfect, people may have occasional doubts about their marriages. But it is one thing to allege the invalidity of a marriage; it is quite another to prove it—as a person seeking a declaration of nullity must do. The Church cannot actually nullify a marriage, despite the language we use to talk about the process. When a couple or individual petitions for an "annulment," the tribunal process seeks to uncover whether a valid marriage—as the Church understands it—came into being when the couple exchanged their vows or whether the husband or wife did not fully consent to the proposed marriage. Through an arduous legal process, the tribunal determines whether to overturn the presumption of validity of a marriage before them. The process is strenuous: It means putting the whole history of a failed union into words, dredging up painful memories, and doing a hard self-examination. Moreover, the whole process for many is misunderstood or shrouded in mystery. Indeed, many good Catholics flinch from seeking justifiable declarations of nullity. Yet the process exists to help those very people. How the Process Begins The process opens when a husband or wife contacts the local parish or tribunal and shares preliminary information about the marriage. The petitioner (the spouse who initiates the process) provides baptismal certificates, the marriage license, and a divorce decree (if there is one). The baptismal certificate gives the faith background of the couple, the marriage license establishes the age of the individuals at the time of their wedding, and a divorce decree indicates that there is little hope of reconciliation. After a lengthy and probing interview, a petition is drafted that accuses the marriage of invalidity and states why the petitioner believes it to be invalid. The tribunal understands that most Catholics are not experts in canon law. Someone will usually help the petitioner narrow down the grounds and draft the petition. That petition is then submitted to the tribunal. The petition rises and falls on the question of consent. Marriage consent breaks down into three areas: capacity, knowledge, and will. For example, a severe alcoholic lacks the capacity to consent to marriage if his alcoholism prevents him from carrying out the natural obligations of marriage. Similarly, a marriage is invalid if a woman does not know that children come about through some sort of sexual cooperation between husband and wife. These days, though, spouses are more likely to invalidate their wedding vows by willfully excluding the possibility of children. The Jurisdiction of the Tribunal The judicial vicar (see "People in the Process") receives the petition. If he determines that there is no reasonable hope of reconciliation between the parties, he then decides whether his particular tribunal is competent to hear the case. There are only three possible tribunals: the one in the diocese in which the marriage was contracted, the one where the petitioner or the former spouse resides, or, lastly, the one where the most proofs are present. A proof can be anything from a witness to old love letters. In addition, the judicial vicar of the former spouse’s diocese must give his consent to the case proceeding in another tribunal. He may do so only after consulting with the respondent. These conditions prevent petitioners from "shopping" for a tribunal willing to rule in their favor. If the tribunal appealed to is not deemed competent to hear a case, its decision is automatically null. The Respondent’s Role If the tribunal accepts the petition, that tribunal becomes known as the court of first instance. (All cases alleging the invalidity of a sacrament are judged at least twice.) The judicial vicar always contacts the former spouse, or respondent, and invites him or her to respond within fifteen days. The fifteen-day time limit ensures that the former spouse cannot needlessly delay the petition. The respondent may refuse to be involved, or the marriage may have taken place so long ago that the respondent can no longer be found. The process can continue, though, provided the tribunal can demonstrate a good faith effort to find and involve the respondent. A violation of the respondent’s right to participate invalidates the process. If the process might lead to a dangerous situation between the former spouses, the tribunal does all it can within the bounds of the law to protect both spouses. The judicial vicar then issues a decree called the joinder of the issues, which weighs the preliminary information, specifies the grounds to be investigated, and identifies the party against whom the grounds are alleged. There is no such thing as a no-fault declaration of invalidity: If a marriage is invalid, it is because there is a problem with the consent of either the petitioner or the respondent or both. The Testimony of the Spouses and Witnesses The petitioner and the respondent are then asked to give formal testimony. This testimony is sometimes given in person, sometimes in written form, and sometimes a combination of both, depending on the procedure of the particular tribunal. In addition to covering the period the couple were married, the testimony also covers the family background of each party and the events leading up to the marriage. Because a declaration of invalidity states that a marriage was invalid from the beginning, the tribunal must ask questions about each person’s state prior to the marriage, including childhood and upbringing. Knowing what sort of marriages the parties experienced firsthand—usually those of their parents and grandparents—gives the tribunal a good indication of what the parties anticipated marriage to be. The tribunal asks questions about prior dating relationships and the couple’s courtship, engagement, and wedding. This helps the judges determine if the couple carried unresolved issues or negative behavior patterns into their marriage. Each party then presents witnesses and shares other proofs with the tribunal. The documentation and evidence (called the acts), along with the proceedings of the case, are then published. Both parties and their advocates are invited to review and respond to this publication of the acts. The advocates then submit a brief in which they argue in favor of the party they represent. The advocates’ briefs, along with the other acts, are given to the defender of the bond, who reviews them and composes a brief presenting reasonable arguments in favor of the marriage’s presumed validity. The First and Second Instance Judgments The case then proceeds to the judge(s) for first instance judgment. Affirmative or negative, the reasons for the decision are written down and carefully explained. Even if the petition receives an affirmative decision at first instance, the petitioner is not yet free to marry. The validity of the first marriage is still intact until the second instance tribunal ratifies the first decision. If second instance confirms the affirmative decision, if there are no appeals to the Roman Rota (one of two supreme courts of the Church in Rome), and if no prohibitions or restrictions are attached to the sentence, then each party is free to marry. Prohibitions and Restrictions Sometimes the tribunal determines that the problems that led to the failure of the marriage are still present and of a serious nature, and consequently a prohibition or restriction is placed on any future marriage. This usually means that a future marriage is delayed until certain conditions have been met by the parties concerned. These are usually temporary, but they can sometimes be permanent depending on the reason for the imposition or the disposition of the parties. Prohibitions and restrictions are not punitive; they are designed to ensure that whatever kept the first marriage from being a true marriage is addressed in order to prevent yet another invalid marriage from being contracted. Prohibitions and restrictions come in the form of a monitum or a vetitum. A monitum is a warning of some kind—such as that one party was the victim of domestic violence or that the other is prone to alcoholism. It is a yellow light that warns a priest or deacon about previous difficulties before he officiates at the wedding of a party to an annulled marriage. The monitum is generally addressed to the individual charged with preparing the new couple for marriage. A vetitum is more serious. The vetitum is a red light telling a priest or deacon that a new marriage may not proceed until certain conditions are met. It requires a specific action by the party to the invalid marriage—and possibly his or her intended spouse—before a new marriage can take place. If the husband, for example, is prone to serious drug addiction, a vetitum might require him to demonstrate that he has been drug free for at least a year before being allowed another attempt at marriage. Generally, these prohibitions or restrictions can be lifted only by the bishop or his judicial vicar. The Sacrament of Marriage It is well to remember that marriage is a sacrament when both husband and wife are baptized. Only God can dissolve a consummated sacramental marriage between two baptized persons—and he does so only through the death of one of the spouses. But the declaration of invalidity, or "annulment" process, is part of the larger teaching of the Church on marriage. Knowing what true marriage is, we can determine when it is not present and free the parties to enter into a true marital bond. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Vere is a canon lawyer and a Catholic journalist. He is the co-author of Surprised by Canon Law (Servant Books) and More Catholic Than the Pope (Our Sunday Visitor, available from Catholic Answers). Jacqueline Rapp is a writer, a judge for the tribunal of the Archdiocese of Louisville, and an independent canonical consultant for several dioceses across the United States. She resides in Louisville, Kentucky, with her husband, Keith, and their daughters Alexandra and Sabina. source http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea5.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297469745' post='2211528'] death of a spouse is hardly the same as that of divorced parents. Calling a divorce, an annulment is merely semantics and politically correct nonsense. this tread reminds me of "Henry the eighth" and him murdering his wife because divorce was not legal or moral, and coincidently started the church of England. just saying [/quote] Before you can get a church annulment you must obtain a civil divorce. They are in no way the same thing. A divorce ends a marriage, an annulment says from the church's point of view, there never was a marriage in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruciatacara Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1297297796' post='2210733'] wrong. if the marriage is annulled, divorced persons may remarry. [/quote] Wrong. Divorced persons may NOT remarry. Those who have an annulment may remarry. It is not the same thing. You misunderstood me. If I had meant persons who first got a divorce and then an anulment, I would have said so. Many people divorce, but not everyone gets an anulment. As to persons who have had their marriages annuled by the Church and have children, then I see this as the same as widows and widowers. What I was trying to say was that persons who are divorced (without annulments) should not remarry because it is wrong, and sets a bad example for the children because the parents are unable to receive the Sacraments in this state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297469745' post='2211528'] death of a spouse is hardly the same as that of divorced parents. Calling a divorce, an annulment is merely semantics and politically correct nonsense. this tread reminds me of "Henry the eighth" and him murdering his wife because divorce was not legal or moral, and coincidently started the church of England. just saying [/quote] Take it up with the pope. An annulment is nothing more and nothing less than a recognition that a valid marriage did not occur. You might want to brush up on your understanding. 1625 The parties to a marriage covenant are a baptized man and woman, free to contract marriage, who freely express their consent; "to be free" means: - not being under constraint; - not impeded by any natural or ecclesiastical law. 1626 The Church holds the exchange of consent between the spouses to be the indispensable element that "makes the marriage."125 If consent is lacking there is no marriage. 1627 The consent consists in a "human act by which the partners mutually give themselves to each other": "I take you to be my wife" - "I take you to be my husband."126 This consent that binds the spouses to each other finds its fulfillment in the two "becoming one flesh."127 1628 The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.128 No human power can substitute for this consent.129 If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid. 1629 For this reason (or for other reasons that render the marriage null and void) the Church, after an examination of the situation by the competent ecclesiastical tribunal, can declare the nullity of a marriage, i.e., that the marriage never existed.130 In this case the contracting parties are free to marry, provided the natural obligations of a previous union are discharged.131 1630 The priest (or deacon) who assists at the celebration of a marriage receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the blessing of the Church. the presence of the Church's minister (and also of the witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that marriage is an ecclesial reality. 1631 This is the reason why the Church normally requires that the faithful contract marriage according to the ecclesiastical form. Several reasons converge to explain this requirement:132 - Sacramental marriage is a liturgical act. It is therefore appropriate that it should be celebrated in the public liturgy of the Church; - Marriage introduces one into an ecclesial order, and creates rights and duties in the Church between the spouses and towards their children; - Since marriage is a state of life in the Church, certainty about it is necessary (hence the obligation to have witnesses); - the public character of the consent protects the "I do" once given and helps the spouses remain faithful to it. 1632 So that the "I do" of the spouses may be a free and responsible act and so that the marriage covenant may have solid and lasting human and Christian foundations, preparation for marriage is of prime importance. The example and teaching given by parents and families remain the special form of this preparation. The role of pastors and of the Christian community as the "family of God" is indispensable for the transmission of the human and Christian values of marriage and family,133 and much more so in our era when many young people experience broken homes which no longer sufficiently assure this initiation: It is imperative to give suitable and timely instruction to young people, above all in the heart of their own families, about the dignity of married love, its role and its exercise, so that, having learned the value of chastity, they will be able at a suitable age to engage in honorable courtship and enter upon a marriage of their own.134 Mixed marriages and disparity of cult 1633 In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a nonbaptized person) requires even greater circumspection. 1634 Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. the spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. the temptation to religious indifference can then arise. 1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.135 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.136 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage and the obligations assumed by the Catholic party concerning the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.137 1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them. 1637 In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."138 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.139 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297490285' post='2211605'] You might want to brush up on your understanding. [/quote] really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 wait till the kids are grown up, then pursue a vocation as a priest or nun :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1297474637' post='2211538'] Before you can get a church annulment you must obtain a civil divorce. They are in no way the same thing. A divorce ends a marriage, an annulment says from the church's point of view, there never was a marriage in the first place. [/quote] a valid, consummated marriage “between baptized persons can never be dissolved” (Catechism, no. 1640). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297525343' post='2211672'] a valid, consummated marriage “between baptized persons can never be dissolved” (Catechism, no. 1640). [/quote] N.B. VALID. 1628 The consent must be an act of the will of each of the contracting parties, free of coercion or grave external fear.128 No human power can substitute for this consent.129 [size="5"][b]If this freedom is lacking the marriage is invalid[/b][/size]. 1629 For this reason ([b]or for other reasons that render the marriage [size="5"]null and void[/size][/b]) the Church, after an examination of the situation by the competent ecclesiastical tribunal, [b]can declare the nullity of a marriage[/b], i.e., that the marriage never existed.130 In this case the contracting parties are free to marry, provided the natural obligations of a previous union are discharged.131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297534387' post='2211712'] N.B. VALID. bla-bla-bla [/quote] Marriage and a little faith is a way for a man and a woman to establish between them, a partnership of the whole of life, until death when you part. Let’s do the math: 1 man + 1 woman = 1 person. Any questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1297474637' post='2211538'] Before you can get a church annulment you must obtain a civil divorce. They are in no way the same thing. A divorce ends a marriage, an annulment says from the church's point of view, there never was a marriage in the first place. [/quote] on the contrary, The Sacrament of Marriage represents a lifelong commitment on the part of the spouses. For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do you part. It is in this sense that I say marriage is forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='apparently' timestamp='1297537286' post='2211725'] Blah blah blah Any questions? [/quote] Ah...... yeah, are you actually Catholic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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