Rare Bad Apples Converge

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296953092' post='2209160']
Your passion seems to extend so far as .... surfing the web for exciting, anecdotal tidbits. .
[/quote]


[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296954605' post='2209165']

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/2912885862_52e07ce791.jpg[/img]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

call him Carnac!!!

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296955002' post='2209169']
Hassan, did abolitionists care how many people were enslaved, or what "policies" contributed to their slavery?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I can't speak to the level of knowledge 'abolitionists' had because that is a class of individuals of varying levels or education and expertise.

Any abolitionists that were not willing to study the issue of slavery to understand how the system worked, what policies encouraged it (particularly what Southern economic policies encouraged it), and successful attempts to end the practice in other countries were either lazy or foolish.

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296955002' post='2209169']
. Meanwhile, Harriet Beecher Stowe made a difference by using a [i]novel[/i] to illustrate the evils of slavery (albeit in a very dramatized manner.) If there were many people who cared about statistics, I might put more effort into those. The reality is that people are guided more by emotion than reason. Hence, that is the tack I take.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

So people don't like statistics but prefer emotions so you should not feel under any obligation to understand the issue your our campaigning against.

So your preference is for the ignorant to lead the ignorant by emotional appeal. Sounds solid. Let me know how that goes.

Thankfully, there are serious people out there who seriously care about ending policy brutality and are willing to do serious work to fight it.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296955274' post='2209171']
I can't speak to the level of knowledge 'abolitionists' had because that is a class of individuals of varying levels or education and expertise.

Any abolitionists that were not willing to study the issue of slavery to understand how the system worked, what policies encouraged it (particularly what Southern economic policies encouraged it), and successful attempts to end the practice in other countries were either lazy or foolish.
[/quote]

Hassan, the only reason to study how slavery works is to end it. And it was only ended when a majority of people believed it was wrong. And they did not come to that conclusion by looking at how many people were beaten while they were enslaved. They came to that conclusion by recognizing that slavery is wrong. That no human being has a right to own another human being. I noticed the North was so upset about slavery that they made sure all the cotton the slaves picked went to the North instead of overseas, lest they face a tariff in the 40% range.

~Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296950197' post='2209135']
Clearly. They don't make the rules. They just swing the clubs.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Oh come on. I spent 20 min. at the March for Life last week leaning on an (unmarked) cop car. No one ever came over and made us move away from it. True, I didn't write my name in the dust on the car...but I could have. No one ever told us what we weren't allowed to do or threatened to arrest us. If you follow the rules (and of course there are [i]rules[/i] about political protest and parades), the police are just standing there to keep order and monitor traffic.

When was the last time you heard about someone getting arrested at the March for Life?

And is this because the DC cops are pro-war and anti-abortion? Really?

No, it's because (some of) the anti-war protesters thought that getting arrested would get them more publicity and make their protest more meaningful. So they intentionally broke the rules [i]looking[/i] for a consequence. I've known abortion protesters who got themselves arrested, too, and generally it was because they specifically did something illegal.

DC has had the highest murder rate in the country in recent history, but it is [i]not[/i] the worst offender when it comes to violent crime in general. Detroit has that honor (if I am not mistaken) while DC doesn't even make the top 15. Like most cities, though, it's neighborhood by neighborhood. You would be unwise to wander into Anacostia on foot.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296955454' post='2209174']
So people don't like statistics but prefer emotions so you should not feel under any obligation to understand the issue your our campaigning against.

So your preference is for the ignorant to lead the ignorant by emotional appeal. Sounds solid. Let me know how that goes.

Thankfully, there are serious people out there who seriously care about ending policy brutality and are willing to do serious work to fight it.
[/quote]

The ultimate root of police brutality is fallen human nature. Sin. The proximate root of police brutality is a coercively-funded and State-approved monopoly on certain types of violence. You don't see security guards (armed people paid to protect people and property) beating people up unjustly left and right. You hardly see any cases of that. There's a reason for that, and it goes beyond the "they aren't tasked with policing a whole city" that you might initially scrape off the top layer of the issue. To paraphrase Thoreau: you're hacking at the branches, when you need to strike the root.

I don't care how people come to the truth, Hassan, I really don't. As long as they come to the truth. A wise and unintelligent person is infinitely preferable to an ignorant and intelligent person.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296955858' post='2209176']
Oh come on. I spent 20 min. at the March for Life last week leaning on an (unmarked) cop car. No one ever came over and made us move away from it. True, I didn't write my name in the dust on the car...but I could have. No one ever told us what we weren't allowed to do or threatened to arrest us. If you follow the rules (and of course there are [i]rules[/i] about political protest and parades), the police are just standing there to keep order and monitor traffic.

When was the last time you heard about someone getting arrested at the March for Life?

And is this because the DC cops are pro-war and anti-abortion? Really?

No, it's because (some of) the anti-war protesters thought that getting arrested would get them more publicity and make their protest more meaningful. So they intentionally broke the rules [i]looking[/i] for a consequence. I've known abortion protesters who got themselves arrested, too, and generally it was because they specifically did something illegal.
[/quote]

Mith, how many cops would refuse to use violence on pro-lifers who staged a sit-in at an abortuary? Would they be justified in using violence against them?

Were you around in the days of Operation Rescue?

[url="http://openjurist.org/915/f2d/92/town-of-west-hartford-v-operation-rescue-m-a-m-m-a-d-a-a-p-operation-rescue-a-a-m-m-a"]http://openjurist.or...escue-a-a-m-m-a[/url]

I know one of the defendants. I know what happened that day. The West Hartford police officers denied "using force." They had torn off their badges and went into a satanic frenzy on the pro-lifers with their PR-24's. Tortured them. Cursed at them. The man was not a liar. All of the police were.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296955884' post='2209177']
The ultimate root of police brutality is fallen human nature. Sin. The proximate root of police brutality is a coercively-funded and State-approved monopoly on certain types of violence.[/QUOTE]

Unless levels of police brutality is at a constant level across different government structure then obviously particular government policies and structures can be more conducive to system police brutality.

Which government policies are efficient in curbing police brutality? You don't know because you aren't a serious opponent of police brutality.

Short of deconstructing the state structure, what concrete steps can be taken to reduce instances of police brutality?

[QUOTE]You don't see security guards (armed people paid to protect people and property) beating people up unjustly left and right. You hardly see any cases of that. There's a reason for that, and it goes beyond the "they aren't tasked with policing a whole city" that you might initially scrape off the top layer of the issue. [/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaMDr2O0mmE

Since you haven't done serious research into this issue I guess you have based this on how many youtube videos of cops beating people up you come across vs. how many videos of security guards beating people up you find.

What are the rates of excessive force by police vs. paid security guards? If police officers are more disposed to brutality, what variables are responsible for this?

You don't know. You have guesses based on a slipshod narrative structure that you fit youtube videos into.

[QUOTE]I don't care {about] [s]how people come to[/s] the truth, Hassan, I really don't. As long as they come to the truth. A wise and unintelligent person is infinitely preferable to an ignorant and intelligent person.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Fixed it for you.

I think I'm done discussing this with you. We can pick it back up if and when you decide to become serious.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1296956516' post='2209183']
Unless levels of police brutality is at a constant level across different government structure then obviously particular government policies and structures can be more conducive to system police brutality.

Which government policies are efficient in curbing police brutality? You don't know because you aren't a serious opponent of police brutality.

Short of deconstructing the state structure, what concrete steps can be taken to reduce instances of police brutality?[/quote]

"Short of setting slaves free, what concrete steps can reduce instances of slavery?"


[quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaMDr2O0mmE"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vaMDr2O0mmE[/url]

Since you haven't done serious research into this issue I guess you have based this on how many youtube videos of cops beating people up you come across vs. how many videos of security guards beating people up you find.

What are the rates of excessive force by police vs. paid security guards? If police officers are more disposed to brutality, what variables are responsible for this?

You don't know. You have guesses based on a slipshod narrative structure that you fit youtube videos into.[/quote]

Hassan, you are absolutely right. I don't have hard numbers on rates and variables. It would take a lifetime to go through them, and ultimately, it would be a waste of time, because numbers don't convince anyone. Objective underlying realities convince people. Very few people are convinced about God because someone "proved" his existence with statistics. I would say the number of people who believe in the existence of God based solely on "probability" hovers at about zero. They believe because they have accepted reality. Facts and figures can support their belief, but they are not the [i]cause[/i] of their belief. People come to understand God because they recognize [i]love[/i] as His reflection,[i] [/i]in most cases. People have done calculations about how States have slaughtered 200,000,000 people in the span of a single century: made possible only through the "policies" of taxation and conscription. And no one cares.


[quote]I think I'm done discussing this with you.
[/quote]

Thank you.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[mcts]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1296954605' post='2209165']
Hassan, do a majority of people become angry when they see how many abortions are committed a year? No. And why not? Not because they don't have statistics. They don't care because they don't think anyone's rights are violated in an abortion.

[/quote]

Actually, over 50% of the population, at least in America, is pro-life.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='mcts' timestamp='1296962267' post='2209202']
Actually, over 50% of the population, at least in America, is pro-life.
[/quote]

And over 90% of Catholics, at least in America, support contraception. What does it mean to be "Catholic?" If over 50% of the population really opposed abortion, it wouldn't be legal.

~Sternhauser

[MithLuin]

No.

If over 50% of Americans opposed abortion strongly enough to vote based on that, it wouldn't be legal.

I took 10 high school students with me to the March for Life this year. They were surprised to find out some things about abortion. Like...that an abortion wasn't just taking medicine and bleeding. That is was legal at 4 mo.

And one girl asked me...does President Obama support abortion or not?

You might think it passing strange that she [i]didn't know[/i] the answer to that question, but not everyone realizes politicians' positions on certain issues before they vote.

I am sure there are Americans who would identify themselves as pro-life who voted for Obama. If the conversation is just about abortion, they oppose it. If the conversation is about which political party or politician to elect...well then. Different story.



As for Operation Rescue, I have never claimed that there is anything wrong with civil disobedience. My claim was that people who get arrested while protesting are arrested because they quite purposely broke the law to achieve some goal. The police who arrest them are obliging. But if you want to stop abortions from happening, then I recommend following the example of Msgr. PHILIP J REILLY in Brooklyn. [url=http://www.helpersbrooklynny.org/]The Helpers of God's Precious Infants[/url] know what they are doing. And yes...the abortion groups are scared of them .

Edited February 6, 2011 by MithLuin

[MithLuin]

Trí slabrada hi cumregar clóine: cotach, ríagail, rechtge.

According to the Irish, there are three things that bind concupiscence: a covenant, a monastic rule, and the law. Without the law, us laymen haven't much hope of forming a decent society. And without police, the law is not enforced (just as it would not be without courts). Doesn't mean there aren't abuses - there are. But a law that is not enforced is no law at all. Doing away with police altogether is...unwise...and unhealthy for society.

It is true that bossing other men is not a safe occupation for the soul of any man. There is much temptation inherent in the position. But that does not make all police officers bad men any more than it makes all teachers bad people...or all priests.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296964388' post='2209216']
As for Operation Rescue, I have never claimed that there is anything wrong with civil disobedience. My claim was that people who get arrested while protesting are arrested because they quite purposely broke the law to achieve some goal. The police who arrest them are obliging.[/quote]

How many do you think would refuse to use violence against such people? Anywhere close to 50%, to represent the beliefs of the population? No. You know how many would refuse. And you know why.

[quote]But if you want to stop abortions from happening, then I recommend following the example of Msgr. PHILIP J REILLY in Brooklyn. [url="http://www.helpersbrooklynny.org/"]The Helpers of God's Precious Infants[/url] know what they are doing. And yes...the abortion groups are scared of them .
[/quote]

Operation Rescue was working well, until the State crushed it.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1296966694' post='2209229']
Trí slabrada hi cumregar clóine: cotach, ríagail, rechtge.

According to the Irish, there are three things that bind concupiscence: a covenant, a monastic rule, and the law. Without the law, us laymen haven't much hope of forming a decent society. And without police, the law is not enforced (just as it would not be without courts). Doesn't mean there aren't abuses - there are. But a law that is not enforced is no law at all. Doing away with police altogether is...unwise...and unhealthy for society.[/quote]

I am all in favor of law, and I am all in favor of men with guns enforcing those laws. I am not in favor of any statute that prohibits behaviors that are not a violation of the life, liberty or property of another individual. And I am not in favor of giving a monopoly on enforcing real laws to a certain group paid for through coercion. In addition to things that bind concupiscence, there are also things that [i]feed[/i] concupiscence, and chief among them is coercive power. And this is far more dangerous when it is [i]monopoly[/i] coercive power.

[quote]It is true that bossing other men is not a safe occupation for the soul of any man. There is much temptation inherent in the position. But that does not make all police officers bad men any more than it makes all teachers bad people...or all priests.[/quote]

It is not merely about temptation, Mith. Communism is wrong because the system itself contradicts human nature, not because of "temptations." It supposes that some individuals have the right to force other individuals to produce a particular thing, and to tell them where they may live, and what they may talk about. No man has such a right over his fellow man. Not even if 99% of them thought[i] [/i]they [i]did [/i]have that right. No individual has a right to use violence against another individual for inhaling marijuana. No man. Not anyone. Without a monopoly on certain types of violence, they [i]wouldn't[/i] do so. It is not OK because they have a badge. It isn't. The problem is the monopoly and the fact that they are paid with money taken by threat of force. What happens when a private sector worker calls a customer an "asshat" or a "scurrying cockroach?" He's fired on the spot. What happens when a police officer does the same thing? Nothing. Maybe a reprimand, if wonders never cease. Their "customers" are forced to pay their salaries at gunpoint. By its very nature, do you think that such a system is conducive to providing the best possible customer service? Keep in mind that we're talking about people with guns. Do most people on welfare have a sense of gratitude toward the people who give them their money? No. They don't. It is not charity, as the money is taken at gunpoint, so it is expected. They feel entitled to it. [url="http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/22/the-shut-up-white-boy-woman-is-the-slum-dweller-with-a-60-inch-tv/"]This is a prime example of that attitude.[/url] I remember hearing a firsthand account of an encounter in a welfare office. A morbidly obese woman walked into the office, and shouted "Where's my check?!" while the person behind the bulletproof glass yelled "Shut up and sit down!" That's what the coerced-tax system creates [i]by its nature! [/i]It's not an merely "an abuse." As Edmund Burke said in his earlier years, before he succumbed to work off the productive class, "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government (the State) is good, but that I fall out only with the abuse. The Thing! The Thing itself is the abuse!" Is every welfare recipient like that? [i]No! [/i]But the entire structure is [i]geared[/i] to produce that effect. Now insert a firearm into the equation, coupled with someone who thought they were not only entitled to money taken at gunpoint, but had a right to use violence against other people, when that violence would rightly be considered felony assault if perpetrated by any [i]other[/i] individual. Do you see what I am saying? Do you not see the truth of it?

Teachers and priests do not have a monopoly on certain types of violence. They certainly have no special dispensation to use violence which would be thought to be immoral if the person inflicting the violence did not have a shiny piece of metal on his chest and didn't acquire his income from money taken by threat of violence. The State is getting larger and more violent. You probably don't remember much of what life was like before 1990. It was a lot more free, in ways that most people under 30 can't fathom. And in some cases, less free. No matter. Even though you don't believe what I am saying above, you will find out for yourself. Because in the coming years, you'll see firsthand what the State is about, as it slips its yellow smiley face mask off, revealing more of its reptilian nature. As it imprisons more people. As it kills more people.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 6, 2011 by Sternhauser