Proposition: Lying To Planned Parenthood Is A Sin

[Ice_nine]

God desires moral perfection within each of us. This is kind of a drag.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1298280098' post='2214350']
God desires moral perfection within each of us. This is kind of a drag.
[/quote]
tell me about it

[kafka]

Lila Rose made her statement in response to the ripple in the blogosphere:

http://www.osvdailytake.com/2011/02/statement-from-lila-rose-on-ethics-of.html

"Live Action is a small, pro-life grassroots organization, and one of our primary goals is to unmask the lies of the abortion industry and lobby. We are not about deception; we are about the truth.

Some Catholic intellectuals have a problem with Live Action's practicing of established methods of investigative work. We in no way mean to dismiss their opinions, but we are in profound disagreement with them. At this time, our team's energies and attentions must be focused on advancing the opportunities our investigative research has provided the pro-life movement.

We invite you to join us to work together with all our hearts to defend the lives of the millions at stake."


So she states we are not about deception yet she allows her people to lie as a means to a good end, something even an eight or nine year old Catholic child learning his catechism understands not to do.

She has not taken the correction from the "Catholic Intellectuals" in other words the theologians, so perhaps a bishop or priest should correct her, since it is claimed she is a devout Catholic, is a public figure, and is looked up to as an example or model by some Catholics.

Edited February 21, 2011 by kafka

[kamiller42]

The idea deception is wrong in all cases is foolishness. There are many acceptable forms of deception. Lying is wrong in all cases, but not deception.

Kudos to Live Action's work!

[Socrates]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1298311636' post='2214433']
The idea deception is wrong in all cases is foolishness. There are many acceptable forms of deception. Lying is wrong in all cases, but not deception.

Kudos to Live Action's work!
[/quote]
Amen!

It would be nice if the same amount of moral outrage displayed over Live Action's undercover work could be drummed up against Planned Parenthood itself on here . . .

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1298313041' post='2214438']
It would be nice if the same amount of moral outrage displayed over Live Action's undercover work could be drummed up against Planned Parenthood itself on here . . .
[/quote]
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=106306&st=0&p=2133630&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry2133630"]10 Reasons To Despise Planned Parenthood[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=96707&st=0&p=1930796&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry1930796"]Call Your Congressman To Defund Planned Parenthood![/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=88586&st=0&p=1731599&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry1731599"]Planned Parenthood Hides Rape Of 13-year-old Girl again [/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103940&st=0&p=2081419&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry2081419"]Planned Parenthood Thanks Religious Sisters get out your barf bag[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77604&st=0&p=1470580&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry1470580"]Obama Loves Planned Parenthood vows to protect Murder Inc.[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=79639&st=0&p=1514825&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry1514825"]St. Thomas Law School Dean Rejects Planned Parenthood Volunteer Work PP's mission is "fundamentally at odds with a core value of CC [/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=83554&st=0&p=1623717&hl=+planned%20+parenthood&fromsearch=1&#entry1623717"]Public Challenge To Komen To Stop Funding Planned Parenthood Sign the Petition [/url]


yeah..no moral outrage.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1298258531' post='2214299']
Stern thinks all cops are bad...
[/quote]

Define your terms or retract that statement.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 21, 2011 by Sternhauser

[kamiller42]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1298314719' post='2214444']
yeah..no moral outrage.
[/quote]
I think he is referring to outrage over PP's response to Live Action's actors. The outrage for some in the pro-life movement has been on Live Action's investigative work and little to none on what they found in PP.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1298330294' post='2214511']
I think he is referring to outrage over PP's response to Live Action's actors. The outrage for some in the pro-life movement has been on Live Action's investigative work and little to none on what they found in PP.
[/quote]

i think cause its already a given on a catholic board that people are outraged at pp every day they continue to exist.

we are outraged that one of our brothers is miss teaching the faith and thus possibly leading other to sin because of wrong teachings.

[XIX]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298153760' post='2213917']
Certainly. We often do, and should withhold knowledge (e.g. seal of the confessional). However withholding the truth is not the same as lying, and in the case we're discussing, the person in question actively lies rather than passively withholds.
[/quote]
I must have mis-read your post, then.

It wouldn't be the first time my reading comprehension skills have taken a beating due to inattentiveness.

[XIX]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298335023' post='2214525']
i think cause its already a given on a catholic board that people are outraged at pp every day they continue to exist.

we are outraged that one of our brothers is miss teaching the faith and thus possibly leading other to sin because of wrong teachings.
[/quote]
Yeah, exactly. It's nigh well impossible to string together 130 posts of just preaching to the choir.

If a troll of Budge-ian proportions came on and slandered the pro-life movement at every possible turn, you better believe we'd have some discussion going on. Moreso if they bring 2 or 3 friends to ensure that the fire keeps going.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1298311636' post='2214433']
The idea deception is wrong in all cases is foolishness. There are many acceptable forms of deception. Lying is wrong in all cases, but not deception.

Kudos to Live Action's work!
[/quote]
That would be foolish. Good thing nobody on this thread said anything even close to that.

[kafka]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298335023' post='2214525']
we are outraged that one of our brothers is miss teaching the faith and thus possibly leading other to sin because of wrong teachings.
[/quote]
yes.

It is the trends, the trends reveal it. What? Six to seven thousand years of natural law, as many of Divine Revelation culminating in the Son of God sent into the world, two thousand years of Magisterium and we cannot all agree on a blatant string of lies and apply a basic moral principle to the circumstance? We, the Church, who are the light of world, the salt of the earth, the teacher of nations? We who will participate in the general judgment? I mean this isnt the Bourne Identity, it's real life. And no one under any circumstance is exempt from the eternal moral law, undercover investigators inclusive. Has the salt lost it's savor? Is the light hidden that much?

It is what Ven. John Paul II wrote in 1993:

"Today, however, it seems necessary to reflect on the whole of the [b]Church's moral teaching[/b], with the precise goal of recalling certain fundamental truths of Catholic doctrine which, [b]in the present circumstances, risk being distorted or denied[/b]. In fact, a new situation has come about within the Christian community itself, which has experienced the spread of numerous doubts and objections of a human and psychological, social and cultural, religious and even properly theological nature, with regard to the Church's moral teachings. [b]It is no longer a matter of limited and occasional dissent, but of an overall and systematic calling into question of traditional moral doctrine[/b], on the basis of certain anthropological and ethical presuppositions. At the root of these presuppositions is the more or less obvious influence of currents of thought which end by detaching human freedom from its essential and constitutive relationship to truth. Thus the traditional doctrine regarding the natural law, and the universality and the permanent validity of its precepts, is rejected; certain of the Church's moral teachings are found simply unacceptable; and the Magisterium itself is considered capable of intervening in matters of morality only in order to "exhort consciences" and to "propose values", in the light of which each individual will independently make his or her decisions and life choices.

In particular, note should be taken of the lack of harmony between the traditional response of the Church and certain theological positions, encountered even in Seminaries and in Faculties of Theology, with regard to questions of the greatest importance for the Church and for the life of faith of Christians, as well as for the life of society itself." (Veritatis Splendor no. 4)

Only now, now what JPII wrote has gone rabid, feral no doubt the advent of the internet helped, the great noosphere! The simple truth is that Christians, if they want to do something, or have done something, or want to support something will go find a teacher to "justify" their conscience. This is not a theory, it is fact. It is just as Saint Paul, not simply stated, but [b]predicted [/b] as in prophecy:

{4:3} For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine, but instead, according to their own desires, they will gather to themselves teachers, with itching ears,
{4:4} and certainly, they will turn their hearing away from the truth, and they will be turned toward fables.

and the people are:

{3:7} always learning, yet never achieving knowledge of the truth.

And what could be said of the teachers?

We are seeing and will be seeing the fulfillment of prophecies. And we saw this in the wake of the Condom Controversy, the recent Arizona abortion, the German Catholic theologians, and I'm sure the examples are countless. It is all over the place. And I dont see any sign that things are going turn around any time soon. So buck up little flock, meek of the earth, little ones. Keep your lamps shining through humble prayers, self-denial, and works of mercy as we embark onto the great darkness ahead!

How is that for rhetoric?

Edited February 22, 2011 by kafka

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298339328' post='2214531']
That would be foolish. Good thing nobody on this thread said anything even close to that.
[/quote]
Yes, so nice to see you too.

I read some posts stating deception is wrong in all cases. I disagree. And, I think Live Action's work is morally acceptable. Well, the work I know they've done.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think you're going to have to pull that quote up for me. I didn't say it, I don't know anyone who did, and I would disagree with them as well.
We are not bound to reveal the truth to those who have no right to know, however this is not the same as actively lying to someone for any reason.

However, Live Action's work involves lies, lies are sinful, and we can never condone sin.