XIX Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1298055464' post='2213634'] Basically, he is simply asserting that one doesn't need to tell the truth because doing so would cause some amount of evil. He asserts that this isn't lying, but he doesn't back that up adequately, in my opinion. If he can do it, I'd be thrilled, but I don't believe he's there yet. [/quote] I have a fairly simple (not to be confused with obviously correct) answer. It's also not a theologically deep answer: God never lies to us. He does, however, withhold a lot of knowledge from us. Therefore, it can't be sinful for us to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I see this as no different than a sting operation to catch a man looking for a hired killer to murder his wife, or impersonating a kid online to catch a sexual predator. I have no problem with those, and I have no problem lying to people who chop up little human beings for profit. I would rather suffer the consequences of a lie, that see evil abound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) "The light of discretion (which proceeds from love, as I have told thee) gives to the neighbor a conditioned love, one that, being ordered aright, does not cause the injury of sin to self in order to be useful to others, for, if one single sin were committed to save the whole world from Hell, or to obtain one great virtue, the motive would not be a rightly ordered or discreet love, but rather indiscreet, for it is not lawful to perform even one act of great virtue and profit to others, by means of the guilt of sin. (The Dialogue of Saint Catherine of Siena, n. 42, God is giving a private revelation to Saint Catherine, but basically it is a another way of saying a good end does not justify an evil means which is an ethical principle taught by the Magisterium) There are other ways to help overcome abortion like prayer and fasting. Here is my idea: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=111200 Edited February 19, 2011 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1298144662' post='2213880'] I see this as no different than a sting operation to catch a man looking for a hired killer to murder his wife, or impersonating a kid online to catch a sexual predator. I have no problem with those, and I have no problem lying to people who chop up little human beings for profit. I would rather suffer the consequences of a lie, that see evil abound. [/quote] do you disagree with the ccc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='XIX' timestamp='1298144210' post='2213877'] I have a fairly simple (not to be confused with obviously correct) answer. It's also not a theologically deep answer: God never lies to us. He does, however, withhold a lot of knowledge from us. Therefore, it can't be sinful for us to do the same. [/quote] Certainly. We often do, and should withhold knowledge (e.g. seal of the confessional). However withholding the truth is not the same as lying, and in the case we're discussing, the person in question actively lies rather than passively withholds. Edited February 19, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 you cannot do evil so good may some from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 (edited) What is immoral about lying? I always thought that it was immoral because it would lead others into error. I fail to see how this "lie" is leading anyone into error. Just as undercover operations by the police and FBI are also not leading others into error, they are doing the opposite. When I teach about chemical bonding to my students I teach them electron shell theory. I know that electron shell theory is not a correct representation of the atom, thus I am must be lying to them. Do I need to confess my teaching methods? Edited February 19, 2011 by peach_cube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 iono, did Mrs. San Miguel lie to me when she said Pluto was a planet? I think it best to look at what the Church says at face value. We all know what lying is...we all know it's wrong. even if it's for a good cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1298155330' post='2213924'] What is immoral about lying? I always thought that it was immoral because it would lead others into error. I fail to see how this "lie" is leading anyone into error. Just as undercover operations by the police and FBI are also not leading others into error, they are doing the opposite. When I teach about chemical bonding to my students I teach them electron shell theory. I know that electron shell theory is not a correct representation of the atom, thus I am must be lying to them. Do I need to confess my teaching methods? [/quote] the catholic church says lying is intrisically evil. it means lie can NEVER be good. hence why it is immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Well, Mrs. San Miguel thought Pluto was a planet and it was mostly likely classified as such when she taught you. In teaching concepts of physics and chemistry a teacher will often know that things such as Newton's law of gravity, are not truly correct. If all forms of not telling the truth are immoral, even if they do not lead others into error, should I not be culpable for lying? Even if this lie is to better help my students understand gravity and physics? As you said the ends do not justify the means. If that is the case I would have to wait until my students have a firm grasp of calculus before even introducing them to simple physics, and even more advanced mathematics before we tackle gravity. It seems clear enough to me that this is not the case. That these methods are not leading anyone into error, in fact they are leading them to the truth. Since I don't believe Lila Rose, the FBI, State Police, journalists, or others to be leading anyone into error, rather they are exposing error, then I see nothing immoral about the methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='peach_cube' timestamp='1298155330' post='2213924'] What is immoral about lying? I always thought that it was immoral because it would lead others into error. I fail to see how this "lie" is leading anyone into error. Just as undercover operations by the police and FBI are also not leading others into error, they are doing the opposite. When I teach about chemical bonding to my students I teach them electron shell theory. I know that electron shell theory is not a correct representation of the atom, thus I am must be lying to them. Do I need to confess my teaching methods? [/quote] [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298156908' post='2213927'] the catholic church says lying is intrisically evil. it means lie can NEVER be good. hence why it is immoral. [/quote] Right. By its very nature lying is to be condemned. Jesus speaking of Satan: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof." Satan is the father of lies. His nature is lies. Also according to the Catechism: "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving." The gravity of a lie is determined partially by the nature of the truth attacked, as well as the other party's right to know it, etc.. These are secondary considerations though, and merely affect how culpable the liar is, and how serious the lie is. So lying has been established as intrinsically evil. Therefore, since we should never do evil (even venial evil) so that good may come of it, we may not approve of lying for a good cause.Lol, by the time this debate is over for this round I'll have that section of the CCC memorized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1298156908' post='2213927'] the catholic church says lying is intrisically evil. it means lie can NEVER be good. hence why it is immoral. [/quote] Right, but it defines a what a lie is. 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth [b]in order to lead someone into error.[/b] By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord. So, again, I don't believe my teaching methods to lead my students into error, even if I know that electron shell theory is not true, it's purpose is to lead them to truth, and away from error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Lying "consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving." Therefore, by teaching your students intentionally simplified concepts, you are teaching what we could very very strictly define as a falsehood, with the intention of leading them ultimately to a more complete understanding. Further, it seems to me that most responsible teachers will tell their students "these concepts we're learning now are very simplified, because our knowledge of the atom has grown tremendously in the last 50 years, so you'll find in later years that much of what we're learning now isn't correct in a strict sense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 your grasp of common sense never ceases to amaze me. i love you, nihil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1298157960' post='2213936'] your grasp of common sense never ceases to amaze me. i love you, nihil. [/quote] Live long and prosper, good sir. [img]http://cdn.smosh.com/smosh-pit/012011/troll-quote-han-solo.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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