Proposition: Lying To Planned Parenthood Is A Sin

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1296926793' post='2209035']
Do the ends justify the means?
[/quote]

I don't know in this case. Shedding light on a grave moral evil, similar to shedding light on a drug Cartel, seems to me to perhaps justify the means.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1296842917' post='2208724']
[font="Arial"][size="2"]If Live Action were misrepresenting Planned Parenthood in an effort to save lives, I would say that they are doinggrave harm. But she is doing no such thing.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"] [/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]Live Action is doing undercover investigative reporting. Live Action is presenting PP with situations that they are presented with on a daily basis and recording their responses. If PP were abiding by the laws of the states they are in, abiding the code of medical ethics, there would be no story. In fact, Live Action made it very easy for Planned Parenthood to do the right thing, yet PP repeatedly does not.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"] [/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]However, there is something profoundly different afoot. The use of deception is an acceptable part of the art of war, of police interrogation, undercoverops, etc. It is essential in tripping up evil people in their lies, exposing them and bringing them to justice. Lila and Live Action, like many, is on the front lines of this fight against evil, where real babies lives hang in the balance.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"] [/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]Again, by presenting PP with scenarios that they see daily, I see nothing wrong with that. Nor do I have a problem with airing the tapes of nurses who coach a sexually abused minor to change her story in order to score a $950 abortion. Such bottom-feeders ought to be exposed, and brought to justice. They are devoid of any love or decency, and have no place in medicine.[/size][/font][color="#555555"][font="Times"] [/font][/color]
[/quote]


a lie is a lie no matter which way you turn it. the ends don't justify the means... ever.

[havok579257]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1296930081' post='2209036']
I don't know in this case. Shedding light on a grave moral evil, similar to shedding light on a drug Cartel, seems to me to perhaps justify the means.
[/quote]



if the ends justify the means, then we should kill all abortion doctors and nurses because hundreads to thousands of babies would be saved.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1296930081' post='2209036']
I don't know in this case. Shedding light on a grave moral evil, similar to shedding light on a drug Cartel, seems to me to perhaps justify the means.
[/quote]
So then how would you respond to, for instance:

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is [b]intrinsically disordered[/b], [b]such as lying[/b] and calumny, good or just. [b]the end does not justify the means[/b]. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

[...]

1755 A morally good act requires the goodness of the object, of the end, and of the circumstances together. An evil end corrupts the action, even if the object is good in itself (such as praying and fasting "in order to be seen by men").
The object of the choice can by itself vitiate an act in its entirety. There are some concrete acts - such as fornication - that it is [b]always wrong to choose, because choosing them entails a disorder of the will, that is, a moral evil.
[/b]
1756 It is therefore [b]an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context.[/b] There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. [size="5"][b]One may not do evil so that good may result from it.[/b][/size]

[thessalonian]

I recant.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1296940998' post='2209082']
I recant.
[/quote]
Works for me.

[southern california guy]

My initial reaction when reading the article for the first time was that the author did not like that Planned Parenthood had been exposed. I feltt that lying, in that case, prevented a greater evil from being perpetrated. And that would be the case when lying to the Nazi's. Yeah it would be a sin but telling the truth would case another person to be harmed.

However.. I didn't respond immediately. And while at work I thought about it and actually changed my mind. I think that Dairygirl has a very good point.


[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1296862157' post='2208869']
i can see arguing that it's not 'lying' but just withholding what another doesn't have a right to know... when someone comes up to you forcing you to tell them something.
but to go up to someone else and fabricate... that seems like lying no matter how you slice it.

don't get me wrong though, i'd lie in these cases.

then again, i'm a proportionalist per ends and means and such.
[/quote]

I think that the problem is an that this is a case of the "ends justifying the means" and we have to be careful about rationalizing on this basis. I would lie about the Jew hiding in the attic, however I would not get involved with trying to set Planned Parenthood up -- so that I could catch them doing something wrong. And that's because I don't want to get into the habit of lying.

It's all well and good when you're the 'good guy' going after the bad guy, but things can get very uncomfortable when other 'good guys' decide that you're the 'bad guy' and start going after you -- and start using deception to catch you.

I moved to Utah because I felt the Mormons were, if nothing else, good 'conservatives'. I was tired of the 'liberals' in California and I thought that it would be a breath of fresh air to live with other 'conservatives' -- who were straight forward and honest people with integrity. But I found that the Mormons tended to be dishonest. However they were good at rationalizing. I'll give an example.

I worked as a local truck driver and there was a truckstop down in Centerville (A suburb of Salt Lake City) that I liked to shop and eat at. There were a group of teenagers outside the store and they tried to talk me into buying cigarettes for them "Hey my man, you look like a cool dude, how about buying us some smokes? It's cool.. It's not like we're asking you to buy us alcohol."

I didn't buy them cigarettes. I don't really believe in breaking the law -- even if it's only contributes to someones bad health. Anyway, I was in the store buying some Gatorade and some chips when this very upset woman with a short feminist looking haircut came storming in. She demanded to know why the clerks had turned her into the police for buying cigarettes for the 'kids'. The clerks insisted that they had not turned her in. She swore at them and left. And the clerks said that they wished that the 'kids' would stop 'doing that'. The teenagers were getting people to buy them cigarettes, they would get the persons license plate -- and then they would turn them into the police. Apparently they were part of a so-called 'good' gang called the "Straight Edgers" -- who didn't smoke, didn't drink, and didn't fool around. Yeah right, and there's a Santa Claus and a Tooth Fairy... On Halloween a group of Straight Edgers followed a Mexican teenager, who was taking some younger kids around trick-or-treating, and they jumped him and beat him to death. They argued that it was a case of mistaken identity and they had thought that he was a gang member..

It's uncomfortable being a non-Mormon in Utah. You'll find some of the people treating you with a degree of suspicion and contempt. I got pulled over by the police a number of times -- with no explanation. One time I was pulled over because I had "Looped the block." And I had. I'd driven by my house, spotted my garage door open, started to head for the store, became worried about leaving my garage door open, and looped back and shut it..

I know what was going on in Logan Utah with the police. A fifteen year-old girl had been raped and murdered. Ultimately they caught the guy when another girl he'd raped turned him in (He was LDS, on his second marriage, and the father of four kids.) He had raped a lot of women and girls in town. And apparently he's trying to appeal his life prison sentence (No, the Mormons didn't give him the death sentence..). Here's a link: [url="http://news.hjnews.com/news/article_64d0bc1a-29c0-11e0-9d28-001cc4c03286.html"]Cody Nielsen to appeal murder conviction[/url]

Believe me life is [b]MUCH[/b] more comfortable when you know that people are being straight forward and honest with you -- as opposed to playing games, or not being totally honest with you. It can add a lot of stress. Like an employer trying to catch you doing something wrong. But instead of him deciding that you're really innocent he instead figures that you just got away with it somehow and it makes him even more frustrated and determined. A group -- even with good intentions -- can do the same thing. And if they don't have a really good reason to go after a certain person or group -- they may even inflate the reason with a few "Little white Lies" to further justify their action. It's not a good practice to get into.

I'm with Dairygirl, in the case of hiding the Jewish guy from the Nazi's you're lie is not premeditated. It's not part of a plan to entrap somebody. It doesn't get you into the habit and mindset of telling lies or bending the truth.

Edited February 6, 2011 by southern california guy

[Catholictothecore]

I read the article earlier today, without reading the rest of the thread. I am glad I just did, as it is relieving to see so much. Yes, these are not "lies," as the malicious intent is not there.

[Catholictothecore]

I read the article earlier today, without reading the rest of the thread. I am glad I just did, as it is relieving to see so much. Yes, these are not "lies," as the malicious intent is not there.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' timestamp='1296962404' post='2209204']
I read the article earlier today, without reading the rest of the thread. I am glad I just did, as it is relieving to see so much. Yes, these are not "lies," as the malicious intent is not there.
[/quote]
See my posts above. Intent is irrelevant in the definition of a lie. It is relevant in terms of the guilt of the lying party.

[MithLuin]

So, basically, rather than lying, she should find a pregnant 15 year old who has been abused by an older man and send her in undercover instead? It's not difficult to find pregnant teens. If you paid them to take a camera and trained them what to say, I'm sure it'd be effective.

The problem with framing moral dilemmas is that there is so often a lack of willingness to find the creative solution. If lying in a sting operation is sinful...then don't lie. I think people would be even more outraged with the results of these conversations if they knew it was a real victim. It's an actual crime, too, so prosecution should be a lot easier!

[i]'I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood.' ~ Faramir.[/i] Just one more reason why he's the most amazing guy evah.

There is much value to always speaking the truth. I can't say I'm that honest, but I feel it's...unwise...to just toss out integrity, even for a worthy cause.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1296962635' post='2209207']
See my posts above. Intent is irrelevant in the definition of a lie. It is relevant in terms of the guilt of the lying party.
[/quote]

But let's say that your lie caused harm despite your intention being good. Wouldn't you be guilty of the harm done regardless of your intention?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1296965511' post='2209223']
But let's say that your lie caused harm despite your intention being good. Wouldn't you be guilty of the harm done regardless of your intention?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
[/quote]
There are three elements to consider when looking at the morality of the action. We must look at the object chosen, the end or intention, and the circumstances of the action.
"The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the "sources," or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts."

1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. the object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience.

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. the end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. the intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one's whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one's neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent's responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.


The quote "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" addresses precisely what I'm defending, i.e. that the ends do not and can never justify evil means. If you focus on the intent and the end, it is a common trap to ignore the means, thus leading to the ruination of your own soul.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1296965834' post='2209224']
There are three elements to consider when looking at the morality of the action. We must look at the object chosen, the end or intention, and the circumstances of the action.
"The object, the intention, and the circumstances make up the "sources," or constitutive elements, of the morality of human acts."

1751 The object chosen is a good toward which the will deliberately directs itself. It is the matter of a human act. the object chosen morally specifies the act of the will, insofar as reason recognizes and judges it to be or not to be in conformity with the true good. Objective norms of morality express the rational order of good and evil, attested to by conscience.

1752 In contrast to the object, the intention resides in the acting subject. Because it lies at the voluntary source of an action and determines it by its end, intention is an element essential to the moral evaluation of an action. the end is the first goal of the intention and indicates the purpose pursued in the action. the intention is a movement of the will toward the end: it is concerned with the goal of the activity. It aims at the good anticipated from the action undertaken. Intention is not limited to directing individual actions, but can guide several actions toward one and the same purpose; it can orient one's whole life toward its ultimate end. For example, a service done with the end of helping one's neighbor can at the same time be inspired by the love of God as the ultimate end of all our actions. One and the same action can also be inspired by several intentions, such as performing a service in order to obtain a favor or to boast about it.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent's responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.


The quote "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" addresses precisely what I'm defending, i.e. that the ends do not and can never justify evil means. If you focus on the intent and the end, it is a common trap to ignore the means, thus leading to the ruination of your own soul.
[/quote]

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought that you were defending lying -- in the cases cited -- by arguing that the people who lied weren't guilty because they had good intentions.

I think that I understand what you're saying. You're saying that the other factors affect the degree of the sin, right?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1296968608' post='2209237']
Sorry I misunderstood. I thought that you were defending lying -- in the cases cited -- by arguing that the people who lied weren't guilty because they had good intentions.

I think that I understand what you're saying. You're saying that the other factors affect the degree of the sin, right?
[/quote]
Oh dear Lord no, where'd you get that impression?
Lying is objectively immoral. Culpability may be diminished because of circumstances (in this instance in particular, I'm willing to speculate that culpability is limited to venial sin), but objective morality is not affected.