John 21:15-19

[Catherine Therese]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1296934948' post='2209056']
That is very interesting. I don't know Koine, so I was unaware of that change in word choice. I don't know if there's that distinction in Aramaic or not. I have a friend who knows Aramaic, so maybe I can ask him sometime.
[/quote]

Hey please don't forget to do this.... the answer to that question would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAY interesting!!!![img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]

[Catherine Therese]

[quote name='phatcatholic' timestamp='1297021802' post='2209375']

St. Josemaria Escriva makes an interesting additional observation: he suggests that Peter, after learning his lesson from the shame of his three-fold denial (remember, this is the guy who said, "Though they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away!" [Mt 26:33]), now refuses to make rash or hyperbolic statements and so chooses the lesser kind of love to express his dedication to Jesus.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
[/quote]


This is very typical of St Josemaria's no-nonsense-tough-love approach
Its also very cool - thanks for sharing, hadn't encountered that one before!!

[Catherine Therese]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297158021' post='2210041']
Btw, you posted the last post twice (can edit to blank but not delete).
[/quote]

grrrr it wont let me edit one of those posts to blank it out. *pout*

hey your profile says you're catholic MOST of the time. are you a jedi knight the rest of the time? apparently 1% of Australian's officially denote themselves on the census as being of the Jedi Knight religion.

[Catherine Therese]

Well... this post generated so much passionate conversation that my view of this passage is most likely going to be an anti-climax. I apologise to all and sundry for this. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]

Having typed so much to respond to everyone and engage in conversation, I'm all 'typed' out (for now) on this topic. So I'll link you to what I posted on my blog last week... my own personal reflections on the matter.

Interested in whatever thoughts anyone wants to share, or criticisms. Potentially if errors are pointed out I may need to update the blog post to ensure that I haven't written anything dodgy.

Hey so you're all about to find out that my REAL name ain't Catherine... *sigh*

Here goes: [url="http://jmjdcc.blogspot.com/2011/02/john-2115-19-passage-that-makes.html"]+JMJDCC+ - on John 21:15-19[/url]

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297156888' post='2210037']
Not sure what he means by "[i]Note however that Jesus commandment to Peter does not change." ? [/i]Reckon you could get him to clarify?
[/quote]

The commandment is the "order" or "sentence" Our Lord issues after each reply from Peter. It is always the same: "tend to my sheep." So, the Lord's question about Peter's faithfulness lessens, and yet his mission remains the same. I feel this is one of the most beautiful passages in the Bible as it expresses how much trust and hope there is for Peter, nothing but a man among men. He is known to be by far unworthy of his calling, but from this point on he's completely convinced he's under the charism of leadership and truth, sustained solely and directly by God.

"Are you truly my friend?" is how the 3rd request is translated in one of the most common Portuguese Bibles (Capuchinhos, 2002).

[ExCorde]

As I was checking other translations, I came across the Spanish and I got the idea that it would be something like this if we are allowed to illustrate the difference by using romantic terms:

[b]Peter, are you madly in love with Me? Yes Lord, you know that I care for you. [/b][i](me amas / te quiero)

[/i]This narrows the distance between agape and philo for us today, at least for me. From this I can see that Peter wasn't lying to start with (which is an important thing to be made clear, he was just "going along" with it, probably aware that he was giving an ambiguous reply - he wasn't about to dare say once more that he'd never deny Him, since he knew better now.

I'm not sure we can say the 3 times this was repeated was to make up for Peter's 3 denials, but that was the interpretation I was taught the first time, as a kid. It may be about both things. By having this appreciation from the Greek we can certainly say that it's a lot more meaningful than "settling the score".

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297162083' post='2210053']
hey your profile says you're catholic MOST of the time. are you a jedi knight the rest of the time? apparently 1% of Australian's officially denote themselves on the census as being of the Jedi Knight religion.
[/quote]

Call me another Peter... But yeah Aussies are crazy when it comes to religion!

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297162341' post='2210054']
Hey so you're all about to find out that my REAL name ain't Catherine... *sigh*

Here goes: [url="http://jmjdcc.blogspot.com/2011/02/john-2115-19-passage-that-makes.html"]+JMJDCC+ - on John 21:15-19[/url]
[/quote]

Ah finally! Nice blog there Miss Bek!

As I said above before reading it, I was told the same thing growing up. A bit of a typical Roman, legalistic interpretation maybe? It just sounds right, proper and making things straight again which is quite good in itself - and you say it comes from no less than an Augustine or Chrysostom!

I wanted to tell you it was very well put and that it's great that you sought to have more readers through PhatMass. You'll be a great teacher someday. May Our Lord guide you onward.

[kafka]

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297159602' post='2210043']
Not saying necessary - just saying helpful for providing further illumination, further food for prayer and reflection.
[/quote]
wasnt suggesting you were, was just sharing my view. I tend to be direct and unpolished, so mea culpa.



[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297159602' post='2210043']
Not sure what you're trying to say here? I mean, the ORIGINAL text was written in Greek. The Latin and all other languages that you can find this passage in now are translations of the original Greek.

There are no primary sources to support the claim that any other language was used for John's original text. The original language of Matthew is still debated, I think, but no serious historian questions the matter for John's Gospel that I'm aware of?

However, very open to being shown I'm wrong, if you want to direct me to anything I can read to support what you're saying?
[/quote]
I'm not a scholar so I wouldnt know what serious historians think, or what primary sources there are however as far as I know the idea that John wrote his Gospel in Greek is not an irrefutable fact.

Here are some reasons John likely wrote in Aramaic:

John wrote for the people in Asia (Western Turkey). They were a diverse group most of whom were illiterate. Some of the Christians were Jewish converts who would have understood Aramaic. Aramaic was used on trade routes. Aramaic was used abroad. John writing his Gospel last understood that the first three Gospel's were commonly read out loud, so Aramaic would have been able to be understood by more people than Greek which was more commonly used by intellectuals for reading and writing.

John would have been fluent in Aramaic since he was probably fluent in Hebrew since He knew the high priest and likely learned to read and write from the Jewish priests (John 18:15-16). They have the same alphabet I think.

Jesus taught in Aramaic and John's Gospel has long discourses of Jesus speaking.

John would have not known Greek well enough to write a Gospel in Greek.

Some of the Aramaic and Hebraic words in John's Gospel are translated indicating someone else translating and adding (under divine inspiration) after the original was written. There are also some other editions clearly made by his disciples, e.g. "the one who Jesus loved." Why would John, a holy man, make a superlative about himself?

These additions were probably made by John's disciples when they translated his Gospel into Greek, so the Greek audience would have the benefit of hearing/seeing the original words and their signification along with the meaning in their own language. Examples:

And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” (Jn 1:38).
“We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). (Jn 1:40).
“So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter). (Jn 1:42).
“Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). (Jn 9:7).
She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). (Jn 20:16).

Why would John not just use a Greek equivalent, instead of seemingly abrubtly using Aramaic or Hebraic words and then translating them?

Some faithful Catholics have a sense that it was written in Aramaic and not Greek, like Luigi suggested in his earlier post.

So I dont know. I think Aramaic. I guess we will eventually know for sure in Heaven.

Edited February 9, 2011 by kafka

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1297161601' post='2210049']
Hey please don't forget to do this.... the answer to that question would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAY interesting!!!![img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]
[/quote]
I finally got around to emailing him. He didn't know the answer but was going to ask his prof, so I'll let you know when I hear back.

[kafka]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1297779298' post='2212559']
I finally got around to emailing him. He didn't know the answer but was going to ask his prof, so I'll let you know when I hear back.
[/quote]
I am interested to hear the reply. Is he going to ask in reference the passage in John?

[Catherine Therese]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1297779298' post='2212559']
I finally got around to emailing him. He didn't know the answer but was going to ask his prof, so I'll let you know when I hear back.
[/quote]

Any answer yet??

***waiting with baited breath***