When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[Socrates]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1297093658' post='2209656']
What if it's hormonal? Both men and women have estrogen and testosterone. Men have more testosterone than women, and women have more estrogen. What if there was a hormonal imbalance to the extent of women producing higher than normal levels of testosterone and men producing higher than normal levels of estrogen? Sometimes, I can't help but look at a lesbian and think [i]wow... her face/structure even [u]looks[/u] masculine[/i] and for gay men, that they look more feminine (without makeup) than most men and even some women.
[/quote]
The hormone thing was tried many years ago, and failed.

Pumping homosexual men full of testosterone and other male hormones did nothing to cure them of their homosexuality.

And there are plenty of men with low testosterone who are not homosexual, and not all homosexual men have low testosterone.

If the problem were a simple hormone imbalance, it would be fairly easy to take care of.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1297093658' post='2209656']
What if it's hormonal? Both men and women have estrogen and testosterone. Men have more testosterone than women, and women have more estrogen. What if there was a hormonal imbalance to the extent of women producing higher than normal levels of testosterone and men producing higher than normal levels of estrogen? Sometimes, I can't help but look at a lesbian and think [i]wow... her face/structure even [u]looks[/u] masculine[/i] and for gay men, that they look more feminine (without makeup) than most men and even some women.
[/quote]

Not taking any sides here but it has to be something like that. Why do many gays have voice inflections and mannerisms peculiar to gay people?

[4588686]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297109434' post='2209754']
Not taking any sides here but it has to be something like that. Why do many gays have voice inflections and mannerisms peculiar to gay people?
[/quote]

I think a lot of gay men feel the need to conform the the gay pop culture.

You could ask the same question of American girls and that irksome valley girl inflection.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296909378' post='2208998']
What offends me is how the whole reorientation process and the people who claim they were successfully reoriented are used to attack all homosexuals. It implies that homosexuality is a choice. Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed and ostracized?[/quote]

This is a very important concern. There should be no violence. But homosexual activists are now the bullies especially in institutions, by taking away people's natural rights too (such as putting parents in prison who don't want their children to be taught that "homosexuality is natural"). I hope that reading the answers here will give you more hope as to why there's a future in this line of research and how it will help more people than not.

I've repeated and will always try to let you know that [b]one never becomes homosexual through a particular desire or choice for being one (unless it happens after adolescence, which there are cases of, but mostly of bisexuality).
[/b]
But let me explain that [b]it is not by choice that you change it[/b], however it is through fostering the person's pre-existent desire to be attracted to people of the opposite sex that will lead the way and initiate the process!

What happens [b]in reality[/b] when a same-sex attracted person takes that step is ordinary psychotherapy where one works mostly through emotions and memories. You don't face the attraction and switch it off. You focus on what's better and heal what's worse, then [b]it's as if the prevalence of same-sex attractions went away on their own.[/b] This respects the integrity of the person in pursuing what they want for themselves, but it doesn't promise them that they'll be able to do so - exactly because the choice is about what you want for your life, not so much choosing who you fall in love with. You simply prepare yourself so that you can survive through unwanted attractions and live to see healthy ones [b]naturally surface[/b].

This may be "shocking news" to the LGBT community, however, [b]to negate equality isn't an attack[/b]. That's activist rhetoric and we know it by heart. We negate equality of homosexuality to heterosexuality because God made us man and woman and both of them together are a totality of humanity that matters for the whole of society and for individual well-being. This is understandable also through reasoning of a natural moral law.

The [b]fact that people can change[/b] through empirical methods mediated by the fostering of the existent religious beliefs of therapants who [b]freely choose to undergo such treatment[/b] is just a tremendous breakthrough, and a fact now strongly demonstrated - [b]people do change in their fantasy and arousal, not just their behavior[/b] - that still suffers from many obstacles to be fully recognized politically, culturally and even scientifically, which is a source of immense misinformation.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297109434' post='2209754']
Not taking any sides here but it has to be something like that. Why do many gays have voice inflections and mannerisms peculiar to gay people?
[/quote]

They are sensitive (and often eccentric) people. Not all of them are like that, and it often has to do with the environments they frequent. It's playful, flirty and seductive - they seek to make it very pronounced that they wish to be sexually active and available for a partner. "Machos" do that too but in a typical fashion that is more attractive to women. Those homosexuals can be more "feminine" than some women for that matter, women who are straight and have a lot more estrogen in then...

Those mannerisms are a scientifically-proven stereotype though - as in, you can actually most often make the right guess about who's homosexual or not by observing their behavior. You just shouldn't make fun of them, no matter how "peculiar".

Now, let me turn the tables on you. Here's something to be discussed: are people who rather look at biological factors for answers usually under some sort of pressure to explain away behavior they are personally uncomfortable with and do not wish to understand? This type of reaction is similar to those who are cruel to homosexuals by expecting them to easily make the decision to change. It clouds everything up.

Edited February 7, 2011 by ExCorde

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1297044415' post='2209527']
So what we are arguing about here is the size of the torture not whether it existed? If there was between 3000 and 5000 people put to death during the Inquisition then that makes the Inquisition worse than Osama Bin Laden according to your resource.
[/quote]
That was over a period of several hundreds of years - far fewer than those put to death by secular authorities in the same period (and far less than the approximately 100 million killed by atheistic Communism in a period of less than one century). Most people brought before the inquisition were found innocent and released, and even convicted heretics were released if they recanted their views. Accused people would actually plead to be tried by church inquisitions rather than by secular courts, as it guaranteed a fair trial - as opposed to death with minimal trial by kings or mobs, as was common at the time.

[MithLuin]

Most speech patterns are learned. Why do people from other places talk with funny accents? And why can some people 'drop' that accent if they want to?


I grew up on a farm, so I know that if you leave a group of only male animals around, they will mount each other. I've observed that behavior in sheep, dogs and ducks. Didn't happen when there were females in the group; only when the males were isolated. I figured there was some dominance involved, and of course just the normal sex drive being applied to convenient objects (that were inconveniently [i]not[/i] a female of the species). I've never seen the point in trying to establish that deviant sexual behavior is 'perfectly natural' in the animal world or even in other cultures. If some people from some island nation somewhere allow the grandfathers to marry the 12 year old girls...doesn't mean we should, too.

In other words...what exists and what is natural and what is 'done'...isn't what should be the law of the land or the standards by which we build our society. I am perfectly fine with incest and child rape being illegal in all cases, no matter if someone comes up with some reason why it should be acceptable.

I realize that in homosexual relationships, we are not generally speaking about the exploitation of young people or the abuse of family relationships. It's something different. The general thinking seems to be that if everyone just accepts it and treats it as normal, no harm will come to anyone from it. Meaning, that the extreme negatives associated with the homosexual 'lifestyle' are some sort of human construction...which we can therefore de-construct and re-construct. I'm sorry...but that simply isn't the case. There's a [i]reason[/i] actively homosexual men have such a high HIV infection rate, and that reason is going to make the Red Cross continue to block them from donating blood regardless of their good intentions in wishing to help out with the blood supply.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297107627' post='2209741']
I hope we can learn better not only to understand those we know who live with same-sex attraction but also offer them pastoral care. The importance is about not letting those people be hostages of an aggressive activism that really doesn't care about them as persons. And it's about bringing the healing power of Christ to those with very specific needs, often therapeutic as well. Please don't look at same-sex attracted persons as sexually-addicted monsters who should know better...
[/quote]

You misinterpreted me. I'm saying that sexual sin and the driving force of lust isthe common denominator between a person who engages in homosexual activity, the adulterer, the fornicator etc. It's just different manifestations of the same root problem, and that living in this day and age I would suspect the problem is more rampant and thus most of us here have been guilty of the same thang. I think we unwittingly concede to the culture when we make the discussion of homosexuality the focal point when we talk about human sexuality, marriage, family etc.

Living chaste is hard. Sometimes it can be lonely. Everyone has different circumstances that might add or alleviate the difficulty of living chastely but I think it's wiser to focus on discipline and self-mastery of one's primitive urges rather than asking "how on earth did I get so screwed up?" incessantly.

Sure it's ok to discuss and determine different factors and such that lead to a particular outcome, but the factors are infinite and so complex and vary widely from each individual. So what if we determine exact factors that lead to homosexuality? How do we practically apply this knowledge? Say emotionally distant fathers make boys more likely to be homosexual and that becomes indisputable fact. Great, but what do we do now? make men be better role models and hope that takes care of the issue. And what do we do with the gay kids who have great relationships with their fathers.

I just don't see the practicality of arguing about this. Sure in an academic sense fine I get that, but seeing as it's such a complex issue that really needs to be addressed on an individual basis, I just don't get how this is providing practical help. It seems to just be a flashpoint that inflames people on both sides and becomes counter-productive.

[kafka]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1297093658' post='2209656']
Sometimes, I can't help but look at a lesbian and think [i]wow... her face/structure even [u]looks[/u] masculine[/i] and for gay men, that they look more feminine (without makeup) than most men and even some women.
[/quote]
this made me think, because it is true to some degree. Appearances are deceiving, however the soul is greater than the body, the soul informs the body. So if a person does good and virtuous acts, if he is virtuous, good, sincere, well-ordered, etc. this will show in his face and in his the appearance of his body. If the person does evil does evil this will show on the face eventually. Like for example a person who is a murderer has a certain look to his eyes. A person who is a liar or deceptive has a hard time looking you straight in the eye. A person who is manipulative will glare at you a certain way to see if he can conquer you with his eyes.

Once one reaches full bodily maturation the way a person behaves is revealed in the face and in the body. Basically, a man who behaves and acts manly will look manly. A woman who behaves acts femininely will look feminine. I really do think the state of one's soul and his actions to some inform the flesh to some degree. Another example if a straight man, say a little boyish and perhaps a bit feminine looking, of eighteen year old joins the marines and preseveres in his duties, he will likely look very manly after four five ten twenty years.

So perhaps if a man when he reaches full maturation acts and behaves effeminately for an extended period of time, this will begin to show in his face and appearance. And maybe the same is true for a woman who acts like a man.

Sirach
{19:26} A man is recognized by his appearances. But when you meet an understanding man, he is recognized by his face.
{19:27} The clothing of the body, and the laughter of the teeth, and the walk of a man, give a report about him.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1297126128' post='2209894']
this made me think, because it is true to some degree. Appearances are deceiving, however the soul is greater than the body, the soul informs the body. So if a person does good and virtuous acts, if he is virtuous, good, sincere, well-ordered, etc. this will show in his face and in his the appearance of his body. If the person does evil does evil this will show on the face eventually. Like for example a person who is a murderer has a certain look to his eyes. A person who is a liar or deceptive has a hard time looking you straight in the eye. A person who is manipulative will glare at you a certain way to see if he can conquer you with his eyes.

Once one reaches full bodily maturation the way a person behaves is revealed in the face and in the body. Basically, a man who behaves and acts manly will look manly. A woman who behaves acts femininely will look feminine. I really do think the state of one's soul and his actions to some inform the flesh to some degree. Another example if a straight man, say a little boyish and perhaps a bit feminine looking, of eighteen year old joins the marines and preseveres in his duties, he will likely look very manly after four five ten twenty years.

So perhaps if a man when he reaches full maturation acts and behaves effeminately for an extended period of time, this will begin to show in his face and appearance. And maybe the same is true for a woman who acts like a man.

Sirach
{19:26} A man is recognized by his appearances. But when you meet an understanding man, he is recognized by his face.
{19:27} The clothing of the body, and the laughter of the teeth, and the walk of a man, give a report about him.
[/quote]
Careful. People will call you sexist if you imply that there is such a thing as an objectively feminine appearance.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1297126128' post='2209894']
this made me think, because it is true to some degree. Appearances are deceiving, however the soul is greater than the body, the soul informs the body. So if a person does good and virtuous acts, if he is virtuous, good, sincere, well-ordered, etc. this will show in his face and in his the appearance of his body. If the person does evil does evil this will show on the face eventually. Like for example a person who is a murderer has a certain look to his eyes. A person who is a liar or deceptive has a hard time looking you straight in the eye. A person who is manipulative will glare at you a certain way to see if he can conquer you with his eyes.
[/quote]

Ah no - some of the nicest most disarming people who look you straight in the eye are serial child molesters.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297126219' post='2209895']
Careful. People will call you sexist if you imply that there is such a thing as an objectively feminine appearance.
[/quote]
Male and female are just social constructs.



Gotta love post-modernism.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Socrates

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1297131072' post='2209917']
Male and female are just social constructs.



Gotta love post-modernism.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.keithgarrow.com/images/movements-picasso-guitar.jpg[/img]

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297126219' post='2209895']
Careful. People will call you sexist if you imply that there is such a thing as an objectively feminine appearance.
[/quote]
that is my problem. I'm not careful.
[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1297130703' post='2209913']
Ah no - some of the nicest most disarming people who look you straight in the eye are serial child molesters.
[/quote]
I spoke in generalites. One can cover up more or less, or act, change their face for a purpose. But eventually the face will show the true colors.

What Sirach said I hold true. For example take the woman who sang the national anthem last night. Her face and her singing revealed her vanity and impurity. It was a travesty.

Edited February 8, 2011 by kafka

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1297104737' post='2209717']
It is clear to me that it is not biological. God does not create human persons inherently ordered in an attraction which culminates in an objective mortal sin. [u]If this were the case He would not be Goodness[/u]. Human persons, their totality, soul-body-spirit are inherently ordered toward the good, justice, mercy, love, etc. The fact that we are created with concupiscence and without sanctifying grace does not destroy the inherent goodness of human nature.

So I am not sure what the cause is. I think it is complex, but an homosexul orientation seems to imply that a person has committed some serious sins to get him to that state and they do not have to necessarily be actual mortal sins or exterior acts. They could be objective mortal sins. They could be interior acts. They could be a renunciation of the goodness of attraction between male and female, a renunciation God who created and ordered nature. Many small acts of effiminacy (for man) leading to effeminacy of character and same sex attraction. And so on. But I am not sure.

Beyond acts there are psychological factors, environmental factors like for men not having a strong manly father to teach and lead, concupiscence, selfish self-centeredness, influences of sinful secular society teaching errors, temptations of fallen angels.

So I think the question is how does a person get to that same sex attraction after he is born. And that is not an easy answer. Evil is complex, confusing, absurd. Goodness is pure, simple, profound, subtle.

But I think the God can heal this with the person's cooperation, determination, prayer, self-denial, works of mercy. So there is hope.
[/quote]


Homosexuality in and of itself is not evil. When someone chooses to act on their homosexuality, then it becomes a sin. Similarly, an addictive personality is not a sin, but choosing to give into one's ability to be addicted to something like drugs or alcohol is a sin. As for God's Goodness, He is good because he can bring goodness out of evil. Here's an excerpt from Aquinas' [i]Summa Theologica:[/i]
[i]
[/i]
[quote][b]Article 3: Whether God Exists [/b]
[u]Objection 1[/u]: It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that he is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is an evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.
[u]Reply to Objection 1[/u]: As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that he should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good. [/quote]

Therefore, by God creating someone who is prone to same sex attraction, he is not creating evil, but allowing the possibility for the person to choose good instead of evil (the evil being the choice to act on their homosexuality).

Edited February 8, 2011 by AudreyGrace