When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296778952' post='2208393']
Not sure what you're trying to prove, as the two studies you've cited come to different conclusions.

The first one states in its conclusions that:
[/quote]

What I am trying to show is that these programs that claim to transform homosexuals into heterosexuals are not as successful as people in the fundamentalist Christian communities have been led to believe and these programs are actually harmful to a significant number of people.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1296814674' post='2208606']

This recent study should be interesting too (the homosexual activists criticize it for a lot less reasons than their own work has been criticized - it's just that it's hard to find where to publish and announce this in the current political and cultural climate):

[url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/083082846X/"]Ex-Gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation[/url]

[/quote]

Stanton L. Jones is the provost of [url="http://www.wheaton.edu/welcome/aboutus_community.html"]Wheaton College[/url] and Mark A. Yarhouse works at [url="http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcou/aboutus/mission.htm"]Regent University[/url]. Both of these Universities are protestant fundamentalist universities which makes the motivation behind the research suspect. In addition to that, the above study was not published in a peer reviewed journal. What that means is that this study was not reviewed by experts in the field before it was published and as a result, its results are suspect.

I say all this without reading the study because I don't want to buy it. If the study had been published in a scientific journal then there would be an abstract that I could read to see what their results were without having to buy the book.

[url="http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/12/1553"]Here[/url] is an article along similar lines which was published in a scientific journal and so there is an abstract available.

[ExCorde]

You could have saved a few lines by thinking about what I wrote between commas there.

I'm hoping and waiting for a mostly Catholic study. Makes sense that more change would be seen taking place then, since we have all the channels of grace available.

Why would you *not want* to buy it if you seek the truth and the best for these people?

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296779437' post='2208402']
Cannibalism is also common in the animal kingdom.

It's generally a bad idea to try to use animal behavior as a basis for standards of human morality.

And, as far as I'm aware, true homosexuality has not been observed in any animals closely related to man.
[/quote]
I wasn't using it as a basis for human 'morality', I was using it to show how it can be naturally occuring.

But humans [i]are[/i] animals.

Look up the species of ape called the 'Bonobo'.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1296789931' post='2208490']
Most researchers who believe people are born gay believe its caused by hormone exposure in the womb (to much or to little test/estrogen) not a"gene"
This would refute your twins theory as well.[/quote]
Identical twins share the same womb, and thus would be exposed to the same hormones in the womb.

Like the "gay gene," saying sexuality is entirely determined by in utero hormone exposure remains an unproven hypothesis.
You've refuted nothing.




[quote]Being homosexual =/= immoral lifestyle. Plenty of straight people who live immoral and disordered lifestyles.[/quote]
Nobody claimed immorality and disorder was exclusive to homosexuals.


[quote]Also many are using "disordered" in a negative light, when all it means is uncommon or unnatural. We are all disordered in some way.[/quote]
Disordered means "wrongly ordered, and is therefore not good in itself.

From the Cardinal Ratzinger (now the Pope) as Prefect of the CDF :[quote]In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good.[b] Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.[/b]

Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.[/quote]
~ From [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html"]CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS[/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1296845730' post='2208754']
I wasn't using it as a basis for human 'morality', I was using it to show how it can be naturally occuring.

But humans [i]are[/i] animals.

Look up the species of ape called the 'Bonobo'.
[/quote]
At the risk of being over-explicit, the bonobo ape engages in what is called same-sex "frattage" (similar in nature to male dogs humping each other), but this never involves ejaculation, and is not a substitute for heterosexual intercourse.
I don't think there's ever been homosexual apes observed that mate with the same sex rather than the opposite sex.

As a Christian, of course, I believe that sexuality has a whole higher meaning for human beings than it does for apes or other lower animals.
But if humans are merely animals and nothing more, as the atheist asserts, then the notion of morality itself becomes ultimately meaningless.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296834220' post='2208677']
Stanton L. Jones is the provost of [url="http://www.wheaton.edu/welcome/aboutus_community.html"]Wheaton College[/url] and Mark A. Yarhouse works at [url="http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcou/aboutus/mission.htm"]Regent University[/url]. Both of these Universities are protestant fundamentalist universities which makes the motivation behind the research suspect.
[/quote]
Only research published by left-wing atheists is objective and unbiased.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Socrates

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296846794' post='2208767']
At the risk of being over-explicit, the bonobo ape engages in what is called same-sex "frattage" (similar in nature to male dogs humping each other), but this never involves ejaculation, and is not a substitute for heterosexual intercourse.
I don't think there's ever been homosexual apes observed that mate with the same sex rather than the opposite sex.
[/quote]
Hmm. I'm not very informed on this subject because, honestly, I don't care if people are gay or not or whether it's wrong.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296846992' post='2208769']
Only research published by left-wing atheists is objective and unbiased.
[/quote]

If professionals aren't willing to have their work reviewed by their professional peers, then they [b]are[/b] suspect. If you looked through the literature, you would see that not every professional researcher agrees with every other professional researcher on this issue, but they do expect the research to meet certain minimum requirements. If the above authors aren't publishing in peer reviewed scientific journals, then I suspect they aren't meeting the minimum requirements.

Personally I am uncomfortable with all social research because their sample size (the number of people being studied) is so small, usually less than 50 and often less than 20 people. In the link I gave you [url="http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/12/1553"]here[/url], the study group was only 11 white men. How can one apply the results of a study of 11 white men to the general population?

Whether the researchers are left-wing atheists or not is immaterial.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296846794' post='2208767']
At the risk of being over-explicit, the bonobo ape engages in what is called same-sex "frattage" (similar in nature to male dogs humping each other), but this never involves ejaculation, and is not a substitute for heterosexual intercourse.
I don't think there's ever been homosexual apes observed that mate with the same sex rather than the opposite sex.

As a Christian, of course, I believe that sexuality has a whole higher meaning for human beings than it does for apes or other lower animals.
But if humans are merely animals and nothing more, as the atheist asserts, then the notion of morality itself becomes ultimately meaningless.
[/quote]

Actually, according to [url="http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html"]this article[/url] published in Scientific America:

"The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression. Whereas in most other species sexual behavior is a fairly distinct category, in the bonobo it is part and parcel of social relations--and not just between males and females. [b]Bonobos engage in sex in virtually every partner combination[/b] (although such contact among close family members may be suppressed). And sexual interactions occur more often among bonobos than among other primates. Despite the frequency of sex, the bonobo's rate of reproduction in the wild is about the same as that of the chimpanzee. A female gives birth to a single infant at intervals of between five and six years. So bonobos share at least one very important characteristic with our own species, namely, a partial separation between sex and reproduction."

(emphasis mine)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296846794' post='2208767']
At the risk of being over-explicit, the bonobo ape engages in what is called same-sex "frattage" (similar in nature to male dogs humping each other), but this never involves ejaculation, and is not a substitute for heterosexual intercourse.
[/quote]
Although mounting can indicate an interest in sex, it is usually related to dominence and pack ranking.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1296844376' post='2208740']
Why would you *not want* to buy it if you seek the truth and the best for these people?
[/quote]

You are guaranteeing that this is the truth? What is the basis for that guarantee? Why do you think these authors have what is "best for these people"?

[infinitelord1]

I wonder why there are 9 votes for homosexuality being genetic. Have those people considered the Fact that there are people who have overcome their homosexual feelings?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296868761' post='2208886']
I wonder why there are 9 votes for homosexuality being genetic. [/quote]

because non-catholics can vote...

[Lumiere]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1296870182' post='2208894']
because non-catholics can vote...
[/quote]

So, there are no homosexual Catholics?

Here is a link to the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lentz"]Wikipedia entry[/url] for Robert Lentz, OFM, who is openly homosexual. He is also an incredible [url="https://www.trinitystores.com/?artist=1"]icon writer[/url].

I'm sure there might be one or two other Roman Catholic homosexuals.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Lumiere