When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296772241' post='2208341']
I love the way people make up statistics to try to prove their points. The most common genetic disease in Caucasians is [url="http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/diseases.asp?did=35&title=Cystic-Fibrosis"]Cystic Fibrosis[/url] and the majority of Australians are Caucasians.

I quote: "This condition is the most common genetic lethal disorder in Caucasian people. One in every 25 babies born in Australia will carry the cystic fibrosis gene. The number of Caucasian infants affected with cystic fibrosis ranges from 1:1600 to 1:2500. Each year 70 babies are born in Australia with cystic fibrosis. As a result, new studies into better screening programs are currently being developed."

What does that have to do with whether the tendency to be homosexual is inherited or not? You are showing very skewed logic and make no sense at all.
[/quote]


The statistics I showed you are from a source that I read. And you should be careful about what you say as far as skewed logic goes. The only thing I was trying to say was that I find it hard to believe that Homosexuality would be genetic; since it would be BY FAR the most common genetic disease (If it were a Genetic Disease). Besides, statistics can be viewed in different ways. There is no single way of looking at a statistic. Thats just what I gathered from the statistics from the source that I read. And from my own experience. I have been able to tell that it is possible to overcome Same Sex Attraction.

And please don't tell me you support the Gay Agenda. Don't talk to me if you do. We'll just leave it at that.

Edited February 4, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296764920' post='2208280']
The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.
[/quote]
Not sure what you're trying to prove, as the two studies you've cited come to different conclusions.

The first one states in its conclusions that:
[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296755050' post='2208234']
[b]The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. . . .
For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.[/b]

(emphasis mine)
[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls. Doesn't matter where it comes from though, I agree that the ultimate cause is original sin.

As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed. Luckily, I have gorgeous feet, so my husband loves them either way.
[/quote]


Now I have two questions.
Which foot?
the penis only has one nerve?

[Socrates]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1296761208' post='2208257']
This is indeed a very intersting topic. I personally think that the fact that it occurs in non-human animals shows that it mostly they were born like that, though perhaps there is the occasional case of someone who was changed through some experience or other.
[/quote]
Cannibalism is also common in the animal kingdom.

It's generally a bad idea to try to use animal behavior as a basis for standards of human morality.

And, as far as I'm aware, true homosexuality has not been observed in any animals closely related to man.


I also think the fact that it is not uncommon for members of a pair of identical twins (who share the same DNA and same womb environment) to grow up to have different sexual "orientations" strongly suggests that homosexuality is not entirely pre-determined by biology at birth.

The "gay gene" and infants being born homosexual remain completely unproven hypotheses.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1296778891' post='2208391']
I don't think that there is a "gay" gene. that being said I do believe that genetics still play a role. I think there are some people who are genetically predisposed to be open to that attraction. Just like there are people who are genetically predisposed to cancer or alcoholism doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have cancer or become alcoholics. It just means there is a greater chance than the average populace.

And I like MIkolbe's line of thinking as well.
[/quote]

iawtc

[Nihil Obstat]

As long as we all recognize that homosexuality is a disordered inclination, and that acting on that inclination is gravely sinful, then I don't think it matters whether it's nature or nurture.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296779437' post='2208402']
Cannibalism is also common in the animal kingdom.

It's generally a bad idea to try to use animal behavior as a basis for standards of human morality.

And, as far as I'm aware, true homosexuality has not been observed in any animals closely related to man.


I also think the fact that it is not uncommon for members of a pair of identical twins (who share the same DNA and same womb environment) to grow up to have different sexual "orientations" strongly suggests that homosexuality is not entirely pre-determined by biology at birth.

The "gay gene" and infants being born homosexual remain completely unproven hypotheses.
[/quote]

Most researchers who believe people are born gay believe its caused by hormone exposure in the womb (to much or to little test/estrogen) not a"gene"
This would refute your twins theory as well.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1296760532' post='2208254']
Acting as though one's behavior (in any area) is totally predetermined at birth, and using it to justify immoral and disordered lifestyles is lazy and sloppy, and ignores the human gift of free will.

Everyone is effected in different ways by concupiscence resulting of original sin, yet all are called to overcome this concupiscence as best we are able.
[/quote]

Being homosexual =/= immoral lifestyle. Plenty of straight people who live immoral and disordered lifestyles.


Also many are using "disordered" in a negative light, when all it means is uncommon or unnatural. We are all disordered in some way.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1296752198' post='2208222']
Women encountering me are also more likely to end up dressed properly in skirts or dresses and high heels. They also become fabulous sandwich makers.
[/quote]


What a guy, we need to clone you man.

ed

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1296797930' post='2208543']
What a guy, we need to clone you man.

ed
[/quote]

Twinchester?

[ExCorde]

I just saw that [url="http://narth.com/2011/02/narth-remembers-father-john-harvey/"]Fr. John Harvey[/url] died. He was a champion of pastoral care to the faithful with same-sex attractions.

For a general collection of quotes against the "homosexual at birth" idea, here's a good one:

[url="http://narth.com/2010/09/is-sexual-orientation-fixed-at-birth/"]Is Sexual Orientation Fixed at Birth?[/url]


[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls.
[/quote]

Nah, it's just that it's more explicit in girls why they change and when. In guys it's more progressive and fixed, which also makes it appear as if they were "born with it", which I somewhat explained in an earlier post.


[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296764920' post='2208280']
The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.
[/quote]

It says people change and that it's hard. People change. It's hard. People change. Change. Get it out in the media that SOME people change and wait around for homosexual activists to tell you that there was NO change whatsoever, that they were bisexual to start with, etc. They don't want people to know that change is possible.

[u]It's very serious to say that because we can't easily fix it, that it's not a problem![/u] It hinders truly scientific work from taking place!

As research and practice progresses, better results ensue. I do recommend if you read up on the material available on the NARTH website and if you're that interested in the subject you may have already been there. However, you have missed that the reported [u]success rates from their best therapists are as good or better in the treatment of unwanted same-sex attraction than it is generally reported for common disorders such as depression[/u].

I would recommend for you to at least carefully read their disclaimer: [url="http://narth.com/2011/01/anti-gay/"]Anti-Gay?![/url]

This recent study should be interesting too (the homosexual activists criticize it for a lot less reasons than their own work has been criticized - it's just that it's hard to find where to publish and announce this in the current political and cultural climate):

[url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/083082846X/"]Ex-Gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation[/url]


[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1296772645' post='2208345']
I have a daughter who confesses to same sex attraction and for the life of me I cannot see anywhere that we went wrong.
[/quote]

If you check my first post here, I explain a bit as to it really depends on the person's subjective interpretation. It's not just "because" of you. Don't blame yourself, try to find her a good therapist (discuss things properly with them first) and give her your unconditional support. As I said, it's not uncommon for it to happen with girls, they have a hard time finding likable boys along with everything else.


[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1296789931' post='2208490']
Most researchers who believe people are born gay believe its caused by hormone exposure in the womb (to much or to little test/estrogen) not a"gene"
This would refute your twins theory as well.

Being homosexual =/= immoral lifestyle. Plenty of straight people who live immoral and disordered lifestyles.

Also many are using "disordered" in a negative light, when all it means is uncommon or unnatural. We are all disordered in some way.
[/quote]

Ok this is wrong. Researchers have tossed around all sorts of biological theories about it. In particular, they have studied twins just as much as they have studied same-sex attracted people with several brothers. They just don't know. What you're saying is just what you heard from biased media. In fact, even the American Psychological Association recently changed their spin on it to reflect the general consensus that they weren't really finding anything significant in biology, and that a "combination of factors" was the case, as you can see in the link I post at the top.

Being in homosexual relationships has a much stronger correlation to infidelity, violence and substance abuse than heterosexual relationships. And notice that I'm talking about relatively stable relationships, but most homosexuals do not have them and have dozens of different partners every year. Their own researchers are baffled by this.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1296786404' post='2208474']
As long as we all recognize that homosexuality is a disordered inclination, and that acting on that inclination is gravely sinful, then I don't think it matters whether it's nature or nurture.
[/quote]

End of the day, this is what "disordered" means. God will never have wanted you to be gay. It's not in human nature, so I hardly believe it could be in the genes. Precursors, tendencies that may condition your ability to express yourself as your own sex as it relates to a different one, yes definitely. But actual research with actual people has shown that the developmental explanations they give are true, it's just [u]very complicated to change something that has grown with you as a part of your identity and personality[/u]. But I do believe it should be a matter of concern and support to us, especially because it will keep happening even in our own families.

Edited February 4, 2011 by ExCorde

[ExCorde]

To make it easier, here are the most important quotes to start with from those I just mentioned:

[list][*][url="http://narth.com/2011/01/anti-gay/"]Anti-Gay?! NARTH President Addresses Misperceptions about NARTH[/url][/list]
«The members of NARTH are diverse in their training and in their approaches. Like other therapists, most clinical members of NARTH practice whatever type of therapy they were trained to practice, including but not limited to: interpersonal therapy, cognitive therapy, family therapy, behavioral therapy, EMDR, and psychodynamic approaches of which Reparative Therapy is one type. Quite simply, this is [b]psychotherapy, nothing more and nothing less[/b].

NARTH is often described by journalists with terms that are not used by NARTH or its members. For example, NARTH is sometimes "branded" as offering a "cure" for homosexuality, implying that NARTH views homosexuality as a disease. NARTH does not view homosexuality as mental illness; rather, [b]homosexuality is an adaptation that is distressful for some people[/b]. Another inaccurate description is "conversion" therapy, a term not used by NARTH members. This term seems to imply some type of force or the idea of a therapist pressuring a client to change. NARTH therapists understand that psychotherapy should never be coercive, but should be offered in accordance with professional ethics and a [b]respect for client self-determination[/b].»

[list][*][url="http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx"]American Psychological Association. (2008). [i]Answers to your questions: For a better understanding of sexual orientation and homosexuality[/i][/url][/list]
«[b]There is no consensus among scientists[/b] about the exact reasons that an individual [b]develops[/b] a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many [b]think[/b] that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.»[url="http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx"]
[/url]

Edited February 4, 2011 by ExCorde

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1296814674' post='2208606']
I just saw that [url="http://narth.com/2011/02/narth-remembers-father-john-harvey/"]Fr. John Harvey[/url] died. He was a champion of pastoral care to the faithful with same-sex attractions.

For a general collection of quotes against the "homosexual at birth" idea, here's a good one:

[url="http://narth.com/2010/09/is-sexual-orientation-fixed-at-birth/"]Is Sexual Orientation Fixed at Birth?[/url]




Nah, it's just that it's more explicit in girls why they change and when. In guys it's more progressive and fixed, which also makes it appear as if they were "born with it", which I somewhat explained in an earlier post.




It says people change and that it's hard. People change. It's hard. People change. Change. Get it out in the media that SOME people change and wait around for homosexual activists to tell you that there was NO change whatsoever, that they were bisexual to start with, etc. They don't want people to know that change is possible.

[u]It's very serious to say that because we can't easily fix it, that it's not a problem![/u] It hinders truly scientific work from taking place!

As research and practice progresses, better results ensue. I do recommend if you read up on the material available on the NARTH website and if you're that interested in the subject you may have already been there. However, you have missed that the reported [u]success rates from their best therapists are as good or better in the treatment of unwanted same-sex attraction than it is generally reported for common disorders such as depression[/u].

I would recommend for you to at least carefully read their disclaimer: [url="http://narth.com/2011/01/anti-gay/"]Anti-Gay?![/url]

This recent study should be interesting too (the homosexual activists criticize it for a lot less reasons than their own work has been criticized - it's just that it's hard to find where to publish and announce this in the current political and cultural climate):

[url="http://www.amazon.com/dp/083082846X/"]Ex-Gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation[/url]




If you check my first post here, I explain a bit as to it really depends on the person's subjective interpretation. It's not just "because" of you. Don't blame yourself, try to find her a good therapist (discuss things properly with them first) and give her your unconditional support. As I said, it's not uncommon for it to happen with girls, they have a hard time finding likable boys along with everything else.




Ok this is wrong. Researchers have tossed around all sorts of biological theories about it. In particular, they have studied twins just as much as they have studied same-sex attracted people with several brothers. They just don't know. What you're saying is just what you heard from biased media. In fact, even the American Psychological Association recently changed their spin on it to reflect the general consensus that they weren't really finding anything significant in biology, and that a "combination of factors" was the case, as you can see in the link I post at the top.

Being in homosexual relationships has a much stronger correlation to infidelity, violence and substance abuse than heterosexual relationships. And notice that I'm talking about relatively stable relationships, but most homosexuals do not have them and have dozens of different partners every year. Their own researchers are baffled by this.



End of the day, this is what "disordered" means. God will never have wanted you to be gay. It's not in human nature, so I hardly believe it could be in the genes. Precursors, tendencies that may condition your ability to express yourself as your own sex as it relates to a different one, yes definitely. But actual research with actual people has shown that the developmental explanations they give are true, it's just [u]very complicated to change something that has grown with you as a part of your identity and personality[/u]. But I do believe it should be a matter of concern and support to us, especially because it will keep happening even in our own families.
[/quote]

LOL WUT. Pretty sure God controls every thing bro. Don't tell me I'm wrong when your only reason is your biased opinion. Ridiculous.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1296823333' post='2208639']
LOL WUT. Pretty sure God controls every thing bro. Don't tell me I'm wrong when your only reason is your biased opinion. Ridiculous.
[/quote]

I guess I should thank you for telling me I'm ridiculous and biased by using an irrational and dismissive comment.

On the contrary (and just to tickle you a bit):

[i]The LORD God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him."

The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has been taken."

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

(Gen 2:18.22-24)[/i]

[Ice_nine]

What if sexual orientation is merely a social-construct, like race, and there are actually no rigid genetic indicators that dictate one's orientation? There are probably more educated people on this board who could help me out, but there was tons of "research" back in the day to draw lines between different racial groups and today we see virtually all of this science (i.e. negroids have smaller skulls than caucasians therefore anglo-people are more intelligente) but now the consensus in academia is that it is impossible to distinguish one race from another with only genetic information.

Regardless cultural divisions have risen from man's misunderstandings in terms of race, similar to the cultural divisions that exist around the issue of homosexuality and other sexual minorities. Like the race issue we can't just be like "oh hai race doesn't really exist we can all be friends now and just pretend skin color and nationality etc hold no significance now." And I'm not saying, that if sexual orientation really is merely a social-construct, we can snap our fingers and all understand each other like that, but I think we need to slow the hell down and figure out if the concept of sexual orientation is valid. I'm not entirely sure that it is.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296778899' post='2208392']
The statistics I showed you are from a source that I read. And you should be careful about what you say as far as skewed logic goes. The only thing I was trying to say was that I find it hard to believe that Homosexuality would be genetic; since it would be BY FAR the most common genetic disease (If it were a Genetic Disease). Besides, statistics can be viewed in different ways. There is no single way of looking at a statistic. Thats just what I gathered from the statistics from the source that I read. And from my own experience. I have been able to tell that it is possible to overcome Same Sex Attraction.

And please don't tell me you support the Gay Agenda. Don't talk to me if you do. We'll just leave it at that.
[/quote]

What is your source?