When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[Lumiere]

Robert L. Spitzer did a follow up study of people who participated in "reparative therapy" for homosexuality.

This study was entitled [url="http://www.springerlink.com/content/rk67865783602411/"]"Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation"[/url].

Abstract
Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as "reparative therapy". This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual. The participants were 200 self-selected individuals (143 males, 57 females) who reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years. They were interviewed by telephone, using a structured interview that assessed same sex attraction, fantasy, yearning, and overt homosexual behavior. On all measures, the year prior to the therapy was compared to the year before the interview. [b]The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. [u]Reports of complete change were uncommon[/u]. Female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants. Either some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, actually change their predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation or some gay men and women construct elaborate self-deceptive narratives (or even lie) in which they claim to have changed their sexual orientation, or both.[/b] For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.

(emphasis mine)

[Lumiere]

Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder also did a study entitled [url="http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pro/33/3/249/"]"Changing sexual orientation: A consumers' report"[/url].

Abstract

What motivates individuals to pursue conversion therapy and ex-gay groups? How do they perceive its harmfulness and helpfulness? In this study, 202 consumers of sexual orientation conversion interventions were interviewed to answer these questions. [b]The results indicated that a majority failed to change sexual orientation, and many reported that they associated harm with conversion interventions.[/b] A minority reported feeling helped, although not necessarily with their original goal of changing sexual orientation. A developmental model that describes the various pathways of individuals who attempt to change their sexual orientation is presented.

(emphasis mine)

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1296755050' post='2208234']
Robert L. Spitzer did a follow up study of people who participated in "reparative therapy" for homosexuality.

This study was entitled [url="http://www.springerlink.com/content/rk67865783602411/"]"Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation"[/url].

Abstract
Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as "reparative therapy". This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexual can, with some form of reparative therapy, become predominantly heterosexual. The participants were 200 self-selected individuals (143 males, 57 females) who reported at least some minimal change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation that lasted at least 5 years. They were interviewed by telephone, using a structured interview that assessed same sex attraction, fantasy, yearning, and overt homosexual behavior. On all measures, the year prior to the therapy was compared to the year before the interview. [b]The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. [u]Reports of complete change were uncommon[/u]. Female participants reported significantly more change than did male participants. Either some gay men and lesbians, following reparative therapy, actually change their predominantly homosexual orientation to a predominantly heterosexual orientation or some gay men and women construct elaborate self-deceptive narratives (or even lie) in which they claim to have changed their sexual orientation, or both.[/b] For many reasons, it is concluded that the participants' self-reports were, by-and-large, credible and that few elaborated self-deceptive narratives or lied. Thus, there is evidence that change in sexual orientation following some form of reparative therapy does occur in some gay men and lesbians.

(emphasis mine)
[/quote]

A counselor who I used to go to told me that he read somewhere that 15% of people who attend this type of therapy completely overcome their homosexual tendencies. Where as the majority experience some level of change.

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think people are born " homosexual", however I do believe people's sexuality starts on a continuum do to their genetic makeup and hormone level in utero, specifically the amount of androgenic steroids circulating during development. There are also studies in birth order that indicate that in some cases the more older brothers a male has the more likely his orientation is to the center of the continuum, he was exposed to less testosterone due to maternal mediating influences. So everyone has a specific spot on the continuum at birth, and the nurturing, early sexual experiences, and society can start imprinting an identity as we grow. I think american culture today is toxic in imposing an adult sexual identity on kids who are no yet sexual by labeling and narrowly conceiving children's activities into gay or notgay groups, instead of understanding that sexuality is not a bunch of traits that are this and not that. To start telling a girl that she is a lesbian because she likes baseball or a boy he is gay because he like art is a crime and scandal.
Back in the day, girls ran with girls and boys with boys, and among that group was your best friend. You lived and died for that best (samesex) friend. At a certain point in the teen years you discovered that boys (a) were human and (b) did not have cooties. You moved past your same sex friend stage and started to explore adult sexuality with the opposite sex. Back in the day you also had actual two parent families with a clear role model for each sex and that has been lost because of divorce or one-parent homes. You also were more likely to have brothers and sisters in which to observe and delight in the diffferences in the sexes. Back then dating started in late high school, today dating starts in grade school!
For some reason this sense of sexual development as a series of stages has been lost with the erronous notion you are born as something and cannot change. Now a days you have a same sex best friend as a child even in grade school and you are immediately labeled gay, and there is something wrong with you. Kids respond in one of two ways, affirm the label or reject it, but either way you have been scarred and sexualized long before you are a sexual adult.

[sixpence]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296713315' post='2208109']
A few things to consider when debating whether or not Homosexuality is Genetic...

1) If homosexuality was Genetic it would have to be considered a Genetic disorder
2) If homosexuality was Genetic, and it was a Genetic disorder, it would be, by far, the most common genetic disorder there is (Since it would be found in 1-4% of the population).
3) Homosexuality does not make sense in terms of evolution. Since evolution is based on survival of a species. Thats why it would be a disorder.
[/quote]

just some thoughts of my own....
first, evolution is based on the reproduction of individuals within a population
2. It is completely true that if homosexuality were controlled 100% by genetics, it would be a disorder. (These individuals will not reproduce; their "fitness" would be zero)
3. If it were control 100% genetically, it would likely not exist at all (no one would pass on those genes).
4. There is such as thing as having a genetic "pre-disposition" to things (certain diseases, etc); you are not doomed to have the disease/disorder, but it is pretty likely that if you add in certain environmental/social factors, those things will show up.. I feel like this is probably how homosexuality works
5. I think homosexuality occurs on a spectrum rather than a black and white scale, and i think it is more likely to occur due to a combination of predisposition and personal experience, than just plain genetics or just plain choice on the the part of the individual

edit, typo

Edited February 3, 2011 by sixpence

[Socrates]

Human behavior and inclinations are complex, and usually can't be reduced to any one biological or environmental cause.

Experiences and habits can shape one's sexual inclinations and such, and I doubt they are irrevocably fixed at birth.

I don't think anyone is "born gay," I don't believe there is a "gay gene" anymore than there is a "pedophilia gene," a "zoophilia gene" or a "foot-fetish gene."

Acting as though one's behavior (in any area) is totally predetermined at birth, and using it to justify immoral and disordered lifestyles is lazy and sloppy, and ignores the human gift of free will.

Everyone is effected in different ways by concupiscence resulting of original sin, yet all are called to overcome this concupiscence as best we are able.

[ParadiseFound]

This is indeed a very intersting topic. I personally think that the fact that it occurs in non-human animals shows that it mostly they were born like that, though perhaps there is the occasional case of someone who was changed through some experience or other.

[CatherineM]

With all the gay people I worked with, I came to the very un-scientific conclusion that it was nature with the guys, and nurture with the girls. Doesn't matter where it comes from though, I agree that the ultimate cause is original sin.

As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed. Luckily, I have gorgeous feet, so my husband loves them either way.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296757050' post='2208239']
A counselor who I used to go to told me that he read somewhere that 15% of people who attend this type of therapy completely overcome their homosexual tendencies. Where as the majority experience some level of change.
[/quote]

The above studies were published in scientific journals (I have included the links). There are many others if you want to read for yourself.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1296758103' post='2208244']
just some thoughts of my own....
first, evolution is based on the reproduction of individuals within a population
2. It is completely true that if homosexuality were controlled 100% by genetics, it would be a disorder. (These individuals will not reproduce; their "fitness" would be zero)
3. If it were control 100% genetically, it would likely not exist at all (no one would pass on those genes).
4. There is such as thing as having a genetic "pre-disposition" to things (certain diseases, etc); you are not doomed to have the disease/disorder, but it is pretty likely that if you add in certain environmental/social factors, those things will show up.. I feel like this is probably how homosexuality works
5. I think homosexuality occurs on a spectrum rather than a black and white scale, and i think it is more likely to occur due to a combination of predisposition and personal experience, than just plain genetics or just plain choice on the the part of the individual

edit, typo
[/quote]

Facts:
1) Huntington's Disorder is the most common Genetic Disorder. In Australia about 700 out of every 100,000 (0.7%) people have Huntington's Disease.
2) Behavioral Homosexuality is found in 1-4% of the population.

Things to consider based on these facts...

1) If homosexuality is a predisposition, then more than 1-4% of the population are at risk for homosexual behavior.
+ possibly 2-10% of the population...but who really knows.
2) In the worst case scenario... up to 4% of the population is "Gay".

Conclusion:

It is unlikely that Homosexuality is Genetic since statistics are showing that a very large portion of the population is "Gay". In relation to the most Commonly known Genetic Disorder (Huntington's Disease), and given that Homosexuality is a Genetic Disorder, Homosexuality would be, at minimum, 30% more common than Huntington's Disease. And at maximum, 571% more common than Huntington's Disease. I find it very unlikely that Homosexuality (Something that God calls an abomination) is Genetic. Or even a predisposition for that matter. It would be, BY FAR, the most common Genetic Disorder.

Edited February 3, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296765688' post='2208288']
Facts:
1) Huntington's Disorder is the most common Genetic Disorder. In Australia about 700 out of every 100,000 (0.7%) people have Huntington's Disease.
2) Behavioral Homosexuality is found in 1-4% of the population.

Things to consider based on these facts...

1) If homosexuality is a predisposition, then more than 1-4% of the population are at risk for homosexual behavior.
+ possibly 2-10% of the population...but who really knows.
2) In the worst case scenario... up to 4% of the population is "Gay".

Conclusion:

It is unlikely that Homosexuality is Genetic since statistics are showing that a very large portion of the population is "Gay". In relation to the most Commonly known Genetic Disorder (Huntington's Disease), and given that Homosexuality is a Genetic Disorder, Homosexuality would be, at minimum, 30% more common than Huntington's Disease. And at maximum, 571% more common than Huntington's Disease. I find it very unlikely that Homosexuality (Something that God calls an abomination) is Genetic. Or even a predisposition for that matter. It would be, BY FAR, the most common Genetic Disorder.
[/quote]


I love the way people make up statistics to try to prove their points. The most common genetic disease in Caucasians is [url="http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/diseases.asp?did=35&title=Cystic-Fibrosis"]Cystic Fibrosis[/url] and the majority of Australians are Caucasians.

I quote: "This condition is the most common genetic lethal disorder in Caucasian people. One in every 25 babies born in Australia will carry the cystic fibrosis gene. The number of Caucasian infants affected with cystic fibrosis ranges from 1:1600 to 1:2500. Each year 70 babies are born in Australia with cystic fibrosis. As a result, new studies into better screening programs are currently being developed."

What does that have to do with whether the tendency to be homosexual is inherited or not? You are showing very skewed logic and make no sense at all.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296765688' post='2208288']
[/quote]
Props for being so open and telling your story it is very interesting.

I read once where there are stages of sexuality. First is an interest in self and exploration of ones own body and it's responses. The next stage a person will usually take interest in members of their own sex. It's a common sight to see young boys grabbing at each others family jewels. the final stage is a transfer to the opposite sex. I was interested in this because it certainly was my experience. As a child I was a bit of a bully and seemed to get a thrill out of kicking someone's but. At puberty my attactions became 'normal' and I was attracted towards girls. At the same time my anxiety disorder first appeared and I became terrified of girls. I was tortured by a strong sex drive, while at the same time wishing a 'knight in shining armour' type relationship, but was frustrated at not being able to do either due to intense shyness of girls who used to tease me in primary school. At secondary school I attended what was then called a technical or trade school which was boys only and I had no contact with females. At age twenty was the Asian war and I was called up, long story but I did 6 years. Once again only male contact. This experience with an abhorrence of the idea of homosexual acts makes it difficult for me to accept that people are influenced by life factors or by any chosen preference. I have a daughter who confesses to same sex attraction and for the life of me I cannot see anywhere that we went wrong. I wasn't always a Catholic but I have always had strong Christian values and faith in God.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
. Sometimes they get a bit crossed.
[/quote]

Whoa, cross linked files! Sorry! computer jargon.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296763831' post='2208268']
As to foot fetish, the nerve to the penis is right next to the nerve to the foot. Sometimes they get a bit crossed.
[/quote]
But how would that cause stimulation upon seeing someone else's feet?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1296776343' post='2208371']
But how would that cause stimulation upon seeing someone else's feet?
[/quote]
No clue. That's just what a psychiatrist told me as to why it is such a common fetish.

[Jaime]

I don't think that there is a "gay" gene. that being said I do believe that genetics still play a role. I think there are some people who are genetically predisposed to be open to that attraction. Just like there are people who are genetically predisposed to cancer or alcoholism doesn't necessarily mean they are going to have cancer or become alcoholics. It just means there is a greater chance than the average populace.

And I like MIkolbe's line of thinking as well.