When Does Homosexuality Begin?

[AudreyGrace]

An interesting topic came up in chat, so I decided to post a thread.

I'd just like to say that either way, homosexuals should be encouraged to live their lives out for God, as the Catholic Church teaches. And, homosexuals should come to this realization through compassion.

Please discuss why you chose what you did in the poll, and what proof (or lack thereof) you have.

Thanks!

Edited February 3, 2011 by AudreyGrace

[Luigi]

I voted "not born that way" based strictly on folks I've known who've discussed it. I did hear Harvey Fierstein say that he was born that way & grew up thinking he was normal, but I think an awful lot of people who become homosexual are responding to emotional issues/pressures of all sorts - probably different for different people.

Also, I take "homosexual" in its literal meaning ["same sex"] and I currently see [i]a lot [/i]of women in lesbian relationships who aren't what I'd call cradle lesbians - they don't say "I've felt this way all my life" or anything like that. I mean, obviously some do, but the ones I'm talking about were happy dating for a long time, then they got involved in a lesbian relationship, then they might go back to being straight and even get married & have children.

In the old days, men tried to persuade women to put out. Now other women are also trying to persuade women to put out. Ah, the benefits of the sexual revolution and equality!

[infinitelord1]

Based on my own experience...

When I was small (4 or 5 years old) I remember I used to kiss other little girls. And I had romantic feelings for them, and even sexual. Ill never forget my first kiss, and what it lead to. It wasn't anything involving sexual intercourse or anything like that. But it was amazing. And me and that little girl were almost making love the whole day. I had similar experiences with other little girls around this age. And even at the age of 10 years old.

Also, at around age 5, I was introduced to homosexual acts by another 5 year old peer of mine. This wasn't really of any loving nature. Just purely of a sexual nature. I started to repeat this behavior with other kids of my age throughout my childhood. And no, I am not a person who thinks about having sex with little boys.

However, I am a person who experiences same sex attraction. I do not believe in identifying people as gay, straight, or bisexual since that would be against what God created us as. Well maybe not the straight part. But you see what I am getting at.

I have done a few threads over the years, here on Phatmass, about Therapy for overcoming and dealing with unwanted same sex attraction. I have been involved in different types of these therapies for some time now. And I have noticed some results. I have gained more confidence so that I can experience more attractions towards women.

Its kind of complicated I guess. There is a lot of issues that contribute to an individual having same sex attraction. More times than not, it can be attributed to the lack of same sex affection from a parent or even peers. Also, alot of times, people were molested or introduced to homosexuality, in key developmental stages of their lives.

I have just found out that there is a Catholic group known as "Courage" which helps people to deal with Same Sex Attraction. I plan on starting this sunday as a matter of fact.

There have been studies done suggesting that Homosexuality is not Genetic. My favorite was a study done on 100 sets of Identical Twins. In every one of these sets, at least one of the twins was "gay". They found that in around 52% of these sets both twins were gay. Where as, in the remaining 48%, one of the twins were gay. Given that Identical twins share the same exact Genetic Material...it appears that Homosexuality is not genetic. Otherwise, All of the twins would have been "gay".

A few things to consider when debating whether or not Homosexuality is Genetic...

1) If homosexuality was Genetic it would have to be considered a Genetic disorder
2) If homosexuality was Genetic, and it was a Genetic disorder, it would be, by far, the most common genetic disorder there is (Since it would be found in 1-4% of the population).
3) Homosexuality does not make sense in terms of evolution. Since evolution is based on survival of a species. Thats why it would be a disorder.

Edited February 3, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Ed Normile]

1:45 pm

ed

[ExCorde]

Let me clarify something before more people answer (and thanks for making this thread even though by making a poll I believe you may be simplifying the issue). I will underline the expressions that need to be made clear. We need to be as accurate as possible, and I hope this helps you.

The second option is a lot more descriptive and narrow than the first, which may lead people to doubt it. If we mean to get a general opinion, then I think the options given should be as broad as choosing between [u]"nature" or "nurture"[/u] which is a more classic way of putting it. Although I don't necessarily agree with the division, since of course that all our sexual desire and expression is physiologically driven and mediated, the evidence suggests to me that our experiences do play a greater role on determining the direction of it than we are trained to think due to the impact of the media [u]pressured by homosexual political activism[/u].

What could be said about the "nurture" pathway of understanding the issue is that, as part of the process of establishing a *sexual identity* there are several relational dynamics that assist our development. Because of this and in the sense that babies can't even think of what attracts them sexually, noone is absolutely "born gay".

Let me explain that [b][u]homosexuality isn't the [i]response[/i] to challenges[/u][/b]! Homosexuality is essentially a realization of what you have become - it's asking yourself "does this mean I'm homosexual/gay/lesbian?". This is why people get the feeling that they were [u]"born that way" - this *only* means that they *discovered* themselves as attracted to the same sex or found themselves rejecting the opposite sex from an early age[/u]. It also needs to be considered as a social label, of belonging to something as you discover the way you are. This doesn't imply what we as adults call "choices". The attraction itself is never chosen, but when realized as being present, it has been developped and discovered usually before adulthood (there are indeed a number of people who after a lot of sexual experiences with the opposite sex will decide to experiment with the same sex or seeking many other types of sexual gratification). You can talk about it as "elements", "attachments" that will make you not develop the characteristics of your sex and look for it in same sex relationships. Men, for instance, often say they don't want the other person, they want their "maleness" and have several types of appetites as to how "male" a man looks to them.

A second basic element for same-sex attraction to surface in boys (at the moment that sexual expression begins) is the fact that the person [u]didn't develop healthy non-sexual male relationships[/u]. This is why people often ridicule the explanation that "distant fathers make homosexuals" - because it doesn't happen in every case. At its core, it's really not ridiculous at all and makes perfect sense when we clear out [u]what affected a person's inability to express themselves to the opposite sex OR cling too much to their own[/u]. Some people become attracted to the same sex after this, others arrive at situations of different types (including what's for now defined as Gender Identity Disorder), but what really matters here is that [u]the maturity to reach out to the opposite sex is a normal trait of psychological healthiness that represents the successful accomplishment of many challenges[/u].

For these two common reasons (there are others) the man attracted to other men finds it very difficult to grow out of these impediments and instead embrace them as their identity. All of this is [u]mentioned by real people with real same sex attractions when asked to speak about themselves[/u]; it isn't made up in a lab or fixed with statistics. And of course, I'm not talking about everything about anything that makes men attracted to each other; I hope you have the charity and intelligence to realize this is a discussion in the proper sense.

Luigi is on the ball when he talks about lesbians: it's very common to hear them say that after a while of negative relationships with men, often feeling the lack of intimacy, of emotional and intellectual engagement, they pretty much tried [u]adding sexual expression to their friendships with women[/u]. When it worked, they acknowledged themselves as lesbians. This alone should serve as a clear example as to why everyone should use caution when considering what makes a person drawn to one or the other sex.

Now, why is this more visible in women, I mean, why do women reveal more fluidity in their sexual expression than men? That's a bit of a different question. For the matter at hand, it's most useful to [u]know [i]what really happens[/i] in the intimate lives of homosexuals since that's an unknown reality to most people[/u] (as they're a very small percentage of the general population - around [u][b]3%[/b][/u], according to neurological manuals, don't believe those who stretch data to go as far as 15% - but it is apparently increasing, due to widespread sexual behavior and social acceptability which certainly doesn't favor the "born that way" theory). I'm talking about the psychological aspects, the emotions and [u]how love is lived and expressed between same sex couples - it's not nearly as similar to heterosexual relationships as people assume[/u].

As Catholics we should also [u]appreciate the meaning of the sexes and how unique, different and complementary boys and girls, men and women are[/u], which includes different needs and responses as they develop. This is why I find this a very stimulating subject, let alone doing it as a way of reaching out to try and understand a person in this situation and, secondarily, equip yourself to confront the pressure of activist groups who want to see homosexuality (and really most types of sexuality and "families") validated by society. In a way this can be not just immoral, but the expression of deeply held and often unrevealed insecurities about their own sexual identity that society can't do much to support in the end, no matter how they consider that to be the answer to their problems, and will negatively affect heterosexual people everywhere. Including those who defend the right of homosexuals to their privacy.

Edited February 3, 2011 by ExCorde

[ExCorde]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296713315' post='2208109']
And I have noticed some results. I have gained more confidence so that I can experience more attractions towards women.

Its kind of complicated I guess. There is a lot of issues that contribute to an individual having same sex attraction.[/quote]

I'm glad you are able to talk about things this openly. As someone who didn't experience this reality at all while growing up, there's the risk that it's all a theory to me, it's all what's in the books, it's all about what others tell me, even though they were stories written by people like you. This is the first time I actually get to talk with someone in this situation so I really commend you for it. I always try to focus on the human reality behind it, and in this case, that reality is you.

Please read my post and comment if I said anything that doesn't seem right, or if I said something that you can use, since I will be able to reach out to others better in the future. We could also talk more about it later.

Thanks again Audrey, for giving us this opportunity!

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1296719035' post='2208121']
I'm glad you are able to talk about things this openly. As someone who didn't experience this reality at all while growing up, there's the risk that it's all a theory to me, it's all what's in the books, it's all about what others tell me, even though they were stories written by people like you. This is the first time I actually get to talk with someone in this situation so I really commend you for it. I always try to focus on the human reality behind it, and in this case, that reality is you.

Please read my post and comment if I said anything that doesn't seem right, or if I said something that you can use, since I will be able to reach out to others better in the future. We could also talk more about it later.

Thanks again Audrey, for giving us this opportunity!
[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you say. Yes the Gay Agenda plays a role in all of this. The Gay agenda completely refuses to accept the fact that there has been and are people who have overcome their homosexual feelings. The Gay Agenda will always respond to these situations as "Oh...they were never gay in the first place".

A lot of the genetic research aimed at finding the "Gay Gene" has been done by either A) Homosexuals or B) People who support the Homosexual Agenda.

The way I see it is... I don't really think that we are born with any preferences. Are we born with a tendency to like Fishing, Basketball, Computers, Etc.? Maybe all of that is genetic too. Heck...theres people out there that enjoy having sex with Children, Animals, etc. Do you think they were born that way? I don't think so. The gay agenda would completely ignore questions like these. I know this because I have had arguments over the phone with some Prominent Gay Agenda leaders. These people were lawyers based out of Washington, D.C. When I told them that some of the most amazing feelings I have ever had were for the opposite sex...yet I experienced a strong level of attraction towards the same sex...these Gay Agenda Leaders wanted to tell me that I was gay. I even asked them if they expected me to forget about these amazing feelings for the opposite sex...they didn't know how to respond. The Gay Agenda will not even accept people who identify as Bisexual. They think that all these movie stars are just saying they are bisexual in order to gain higher ratings. You wanna know what they say about everyone else that identifies as Bisexual? "Oh they just don't want to admit that they are gay".

The Gay Agenda seriously pisses me off.

[Ice_nine]

Well, the concept of sexual orientation is a novel idea and most of us just accept its existence without thinking twice about it, but given my very brief personal research on the subject I have come to doubt that homosexuality as an orientation doesn't exist at all. Perhaps I sound completely out of touch but I will say this, sexually deviant behavior has always existed, and thus the desires behind it. Sodomy was prevalent in the Greco-roman world but it was not indicative of one's "sexual-orientation" for example.

I wish I was better at organizing the information I come across, then I could certainly make a more convincing argument in my favor, but after researching a little bit of sexology and some history I'm not ready to take the rigid definitions regarding sexual orientation hook line and sinker. Sure the disordered desire to engage in sexual behavior with the same sex exists, but I don't think it's central to one's identity, yet paradoxically a community exists around this concept that each person's sexual appetite has some innate, essential, fixed orientation toward one sex or the other, or both, or none, or animals, or objects (I kid you not I was watching the Tyra show--embarrassing I know--and there was a girl who legit married the Eiffel Tower. Perhaps this is a pubicity thing idk but the scope of sexual orientations is becoming moar and moar ridiculous and I think we should question the validity of such a concept, but I digress).

sorry it's 4 am and I'm probably not making 2 much cents , but just something to think about I suppose. Perhaps I will find some more eloquent, scholarly research in defense of my position, but for now . . . sleep

[ExCorde]

Yeah, I was making fun earlier about finding the "foot fetish gene".

But I don't like to blame it all on the Gay Agenda, or the homosexual activists, that's the expression I use. I just call them activists, activists for the homosexual cause, just like they defend others but are particularly biased and interested towards that one.

But their "agenda" is seldomly just about homosexuality. It's about inclusion, it's about all sorts of "sexual minorities" which is the technical way they like to be called since it's more comfortable than "homosexual" and places them squarely in the political fight for civil rights. But again, it's not just about people who are attracted to the same sex, it's about a vision where there is no real significance to being male or female and it's also about the right to selfish sexual pleasure, plain and simple. That's how the high-ranking activists think.

In fact, even [u]those people they claim to defend aren't cared much about at all[/u] (it's in this sense that we can compare it to how abortion is faced as a social problem) - they just give you the "freedom" to act on it and do whatever you want with yourself and others. They mostly want to party, to be true. However, a lot of people are fooled by this rhetoric and think they're being compassionate and fighting injustice.

When it's about violence or judgement from Christians, there should be none of that. We just need to know the nature of our bodies in the beauty that God intended for them and reach out to others trying to express to them that it is possible for everyone to aspire to be healthy like that. And this implies declaring that although people attracted to the same sex are real, God would never have intended that for them! This is where change comes into play and religiously-mediated change efforts are growing in success rate due to the dedicated care providers who strive to dig deeper, against all obstacles. There's still a lot of people who have no idea what they're doing though, giving people sexually inhibiting drugs, electroconvulsive therapy (although that has been improved), just telling them to pray Hail Mary, etc - people need real therapeutic work and the more same-sex genital encounters you have, the more absorbed by it you get...

So we need to be strong in the knowledge of Chuch teaching (the nuptial theology and mysticism, the theology of the body, etc) and also get the research out of the hands of homosexual activists who hijack it to serve their political interests. We see it all the time, they're the "experts". There needs to be more (straight?) people investigating this subject with courage and objectivity.

[MIKolbe]

to me nature vs. nurture is irrelevant. the ultimate cause is original sin. but then i tend not to make alot of sense.

[ardillacid]

It is currently unknown. However, most men who come into contact with Winchester inevitably end up dressing like they time traveled to the eighties and going gay-bar hopping. This is moderately strong evidence in favor of the Nurture viewpoint.

Edited February 3, 2011 by notardillacid

[Winchester]

Women encountering me are also more likely to end up dressed properly in skirts or dresses and high heels. They also become fabulous sandwich makers.

[Papist]

There are many factors that cause a person to have same-sex attraction. Visit [url="http://narth.com/"]http://narth.com/[/url]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1296731387' post='2208145']
to me nature vs. nurture is irrelevant. the ultimate cause is original sin. but then i tend not to make alot of sense.
[/quote]

[Lumiere]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296721337' post='2208123']
I agree with a lot of what you say. Yes the Gay Agenda plays a role in all of this. The Gay agenda completely refuses to accept the fact that there has been and are people who have overcome their homosexual feelings. The Gay Agenda will always respond to these situations as "Oh...they were never gay in the first place".
[/quote]


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