" Catholicism Is Nothing New "

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297334545' post='2210918']
String theory may be reasonable even though I don't understand it. Just because I can't understand, doesn't make it unreasonable or beyond reason.


Do I assume that you cannot quote the source of how you know that we cannot comprehend God?
[/quote]


Again, the string theory was developed by Man. It is "Man-made", so to speak, & so Man (in general) is capable of understanding it. I'm speaking of the capabilities of a Finite mind here, not your mind specifically, or my mind specifically. Just the Mind of Man.

The source? Would you laugh if I said it's only logical?
Think of it this way:
The human mind is a box. Some boxes are small, like my own. And some boxes are large, like Eistein's or Pope John Paul II's.
But, it is still a box. And there is no box large enough to contain Infinity.
A Finite mind cannot comprehend the nature of an Infinite Being.

Of course we explain to the best of our ability. We have reason, and should use it when and where we can. But it is the ultimate pride to presume the answer to a question we simply cannot answer. And, when dealing with the question of the Trinity and the nature of God, it is dangerous. If I give the "best answer I can" and do not admit that there is an aspect or facet of the problem beyond my intellectual capabilities, then I have described God in my image, and have not tried to address Him "not as I think Him to be, but as He knows Himself to be". Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we cannot know God at all. I'm merely saying that we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that whatever is in our box is all there is, and there can't be any more. It's wrong to think that, even if one does have a very large box.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297377705' post='2211086']


The source? Would you laugh if I said it's only logical?

[/quote]

It would depend on what you mean by understanding God. If God said "Mark these are the laws I gave the space/time field and caused matter to interact with it, such that space/time graduates away from it resulting in a force G that gives matter the property of trying to return to a point from which I caused it's origin" I may not be able to understand, if this is not understanding God, then I concede that there are things beyond the capacity of my understanding and cannot understand God. But if he just talked about himself and said that the Trinity are the three dimensions of God that appear from one spiritual God into the physical universe and explained it, then my logic has it that there are two alternatives. Either I understand or I don't. (Making the physics & Trinity expo. up as a demo, it has no basis or intention on fact.)

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297381883' post='2211138']
It would depend on what you mean by understanding God. If God said "Mark these are the laws I gave the space/time field and caused matter to interact with it, such that space/time graduates away from it resulting in a force G that gives matter the property of trying to return to a point from which I caused it's origin" I may not be able to understand, if this is not understanding God, then I concede that there are things beyond the capacity of my understanding and cannot understand God. But if he just talked about himself and said that the Trinity are the three dimensions of God that appear from one spiritual God into the physical universe and explained it, then my logic has it that there are two alternatives. Either I understand or I don't. (Making the physics & Trinity expo. up as a demo, it has no basis or intention on fact.)
[/quote]


Tally you rock!

So what I'm getting from you Mark is that you want to be able to know God to the extent that it allows you to know what to think about the world and what to do with your life. Is that it?

But Mark what about God as a person? Do you ever know everything about a person? Are you able to enter their mind and understand them as they understand themselves? You can get pretty close - but this isn't about the amount of the stuff you know or the accuracy of it. It's on a fundamental level: you simply *aren't* that person and therefore you cannot know things as they know them.

And don't you think that God knows things in a way you simply weren't made to know, because you are not God? Isn't it conceivable that the Creator will be unable to impart knowledge upon his creation that it wasn't meant to receive, because it doesn't share that intimately with his being? They'll always be created by a source of infinite wisdom that preceded them.

I don't think I'd settle with your understanding of the Trinity. It's not dimensions of God that appear into the physical universe: although we have little way of knowing stuff apart from the physical reality, being triune pertains to the eternal being of God.

Mystics speak of being turned into Him, being made into God, but ultimately Love is a Mystery. I won't doubt those mystics, I'll just sincerely call for humility from our end. The amount of things we forget, that we get wrong... if we actually understood the nature of God we would never think of comparing ourselves to Him, all that we are is nothing but straw, nothing but wax in His hands.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297381883' post='2211138']
It would depend on what you mean by understanding God. If God said "Mark these are the laws I gave the space/time field and caused matter to interact with it, such that space/time graduates away from it resulting in a force G that gives matter the property of trying to return to a point from which I caused it's origin" I may not be able to understand, if this is not understanding God, then I concede that there are things beyond the capacity of my understanding and cannot understand God. But if he just talked about himself and said that the Trinity are the three dimensions of God that appear from one spiritual God into the physical universe and explained it, then my logic has it that there are two alternatives. Either I understand or I don't. (Making the physics & Trinity expo. up as a demo, it has no basis or intention on fact.)
[/quote]

Your explanation doesn't fit the definition that God has divinely revealed to us: Three Persons in One God. What you have described above is exactly the pagan understanding of a triune: One person, with three dimensions, aspects, or personalities. I certainly hope your explanation has no basis in intention or fact!

You cannot compare a law governing the physical world (which, by virtue of our being body-persons, we as Men could possibly know, figure out, or understand) to the nature of an Infitine Being (which we as Men cannot comprehend, because though it is spiritual and we are also, it is God, it is Infinite; we have nothing to compare it to, neither physical nor spiritual, to bring it down to our level of understanding, and it wouldn't fit into our heads anyway. To have something to compare it to, either God would have to be physical, or you would have to be, like Him, three persons in one being.)
When it comes to how there can be three Persons in one Being, how the physical properties of bread can hide in actuality the Body of someone who is both God and Man simultaneously.... there is only one alternative: you cannot understand. The Infinite doesn't fit in the Finite.

This is at least the third time I have said the above. I can do nothing further except reiterate, so I will speak no more on the subject. But I explained as thoroughly as I can. ExCorde also explained, and he did a very good job of it. If you disagree, Mark, then you are free to disagree. But, unless there's more to discuss, please do not prolong the discussion.

Sincerely, respectfully, from a very rushed and time-pressed,
~Tally Marx

Edited February 14, 2011 by Tally Marx

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297615840' post='2211964']
Tally you rock!
[/quote]

Thank you Corde, but... Please note now, I often say stupid things that don't make any sense, so don't be surprised when you fish up a post of mine that is complete and utter nonsense.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297711228' post='2212339']
Thank you Corde, but... Please note now, I often say stupid things that don't make any sense, so don't be surprised when you fish up a post of mine that is complete and utter nonsense.
[/quote]

That's all part of rockin' in my book!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297381883' post='2211138']
(Making the physics & Trinity expo. up as a demo, [b]it has no basis or intention on fact[/b].)
[/quote]

I think you people are misunderstanding me, LOL. I was not proposing any theories. I threw those things in (nonsense) as being incomprehensible, yet having meaning by their difference. What I'm trying to drive at is, what do you understand by understanding God? Is it having him show you everything about himself and creation and you understanding it, or is it just understanding what he is and why he loves you? I'm saying that once I die, my brain will cease to be, then if God chooses to resurrect me to Eternal Life, he will give me a brain free from defects including my silliness and lack of comprehension. Whether he would give me sufficient intelligence to understand the intricacies of the universe or non at all, because it is not needed, I don't know. I do believe that when you love someone you may not know them completely, but you will know them intimately. I perceive the union with God as being like the movie 'Star Trek One' where we become one.
In summary I'm not telling you that you are wrong or that I have any knowledge in regard to the subject of the Trinity, I'm simply asking how do you know we can't understand the Trinity? You are telling me that it is logical and I'm asking if you don't understand it, then how can you say that it is logical? That's illogical LOL. Bear in mind I'm doing this for my learning, not to win any stars.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297711228' post='2212339']
Thank you Corde, but... Please note now, I often say stupid things that don't make any sense, so don't be surprised when you fish up a post of mine that is complete and utter nonsense.
[/quote]

Yeah, Ditto me, except you won't need to look far!

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297720728' post='2212396']
I think you people are misunderstanding me, LOL. I was not proposing any theories. I threw those things in (nonsense) as being incomprehensible, yet having meaning by their difference. What I'm trying to drive at is, what do you understand by understanding God? Is it having him show you everything about himself and creation and you understanding it, or is it just understanding what he is and why he loves you? I'm saying that once I die, my brain will cease to be, then if God chooses to resurrect me to Eternal Life, he will give me a brain free from defects including my silliness and lack of comprehension. Whether he would give me sufficient intelligence to understand the intricacies of the universe or non at all, because it is not needed, I don't know. I do believe that when you love someone you may not know them completely, but you will know them intimately. I perceive the union with God as being like the movie 'Star Trek One' where we become one.
In summary I'm not telling you that you are wrong or that I have any knowledge in regard to the subject of the Trinity, I'm simply asking how do you know we can't understand the Trinity? You are telling me that it is logical and I'm asking if you don't understand it, then how can you say that it is logical? That's illogical LOL. Bear in mind I'm doing this for my learning, not to win any stars.
[/quote]
amesome Trek reference.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297720728' post='2212396']
I think you people are misunderstanding me, LOL. I was not proposing any theories. I threw those things in (nonsense) as being incomprehensible, yet having meaning by their difference.
[/quote]

I figured, since you've done the same thing with me before (it was you, wasn't it? remember that ridiculous conversation over whether or not a moral relativist world view results in chaos?) But, I'd answer you seriously anyway... because there is no such thing as a sarcasm/joking font and I don't like to make assumptions....



[quote name='Mark of the Cross']
What I'm trying to drive at is, what do you understand by understanding God?
[/quote]

It depends. Different people understand different aspects of God, and to different degrees.
Some people know God through reason only (like Henry Adams); they can define the doctrine of Transubstantiation and can explain why Catholics venerate Mary... but, they have no personal relationship with God.
Then you have other people who couldn't pronounce "Transubstantiation", but they know more about the disinterested Love of God than anyone, because they have felt and lived it. Like Joseph of Cupertino and Therese of the Child Jesus.
Of the two, I'd rather be the latter. But, if I could chose anything, I'd want to be like Pope John Paul II, who was [i]both[/i].


[quote name='Mark of the Cross']
I do believe that when you love someone you may not know them completely, but you will know them intimately. I perceive the union with God as being like the movie 'Star Trek One' where we become one.
[/quote]

Me, too. Well, I've never seen Star Trek, but I've always understood "being one with God" as an intimate union of will, more than anything else, as well as a completely disinterested Love. You do not need to know someone completely do acheive this.


[quote name='Mark of the Cross']
I'm simply asking how do you know we can't understand the Trinity? You are telling me that it is logical and I'm asking if you don't understand it, then how can you say that it is logical? That's illogical LOL.
[/quote]

I know a mentally disabled woman, who knows she is mentally disabled.
She knows there are things she cannot understand, and she can sit there and explain to you why she cannot understand them, why she is mentally disabled. It's really sad, actually. But it's not illogical.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297731102' post='2212450']
I figured, since you've done the same thing with me before (it was you, wasn't it? remember that ridiculous conversation over whether or not a moral relativist world view results in chaos?) But, I'd answer you seriously anyway... because there is no such thing as a sarcasm/joking font and I don't like to make assumptions....

[/quote]

[b]I think you may be confusing me with somebody else. [/b]I don't recall having discussed any other topic with you, not that my memory is that reliable. I don't have sufficient expertise to argue about such things as moral relativists world views. I'm not very well educated and I have a concentration difficulty as far as reading long texts such as detailed books, which is why I haunt PM, because I've found that I've learnt a lot here, using this method. I have read where other people have said that the triune, whatever, description of the Trinity is not true but we don't understand what it really is. I was just hoping that someone could explain that for me. .

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297737830' post='2212480']
[b]I think you may be confusing me with somebody else. [/b]I don't recall having discussed any other topic with you, not that my memory is that reliable. I don't have sufficient expertise to argue about such things as moral relativists world views. I'm not very well educated and I have a concentration difficulty as far as reading long texts such as detailed books, which is why I haunt PM, because I've found that I've learnt a lot here, using this method. I have read where other people have said that the triune, whatever, description of the Trinity is not true but we don't understand what it really is. I was just hoping that someone could explain that for me. .
[/quote]

Maybe, but I would have sworn it was you.
It was a ridiculous conversation, and there wasn't much "arguing" going on. You (or whoever it was) just came along and said something contrary to whatever common sense assertion I made. There was really no point to it at all... it was not an intelligent comversation on anyone's part!

Well, I hope I haven't confused you further as to the Trinity.... sorry if I did!

Pax et bonum,
~Tally marx

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297816502' post='2212761']
Maybe, but I would have sworn it was you.
It was a ridiculous conversation, and there wasn't much "arguing" going on. You (or whoever it was) just came along and said something contrary to whatever common sense assertion I made. There was really no point to it at all... it was not an intelligent comversation on anyone's part!

Well, I hope I haven't confused you further as to the Trinity.... sorry if I did!

Pax et bonum,
~Tally marx
[/quote]

Couldn't possibly have been me then, I'm so smart and never make a mistake. LOL! Maybe it was Rexteryalizer, your description fits the bill.

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297823582' post='2212813']
Couldn't possibly have been me then, I'm so smart and never make a mistake. LOL! Maybe it was Rexteryalizer, your description fits the bill.
[/quote]

Maybe.... it hardly matters now...

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297737830' post='2212480']
I have read where other people have said that the triune, whatever, description of the Trinity is not true but we don't understand what it really is. I was just hoping that someone could explain that for me. .
[/quote]

Ah Mark, here we have a reason for debate. This is a specific and important enough topic that you (and everyone) should gather your thoughts together and even host a new topic. I can start one for you, but I think that in light of the difficulties you mentioned it would be best if you took charge of those doubts you have and carry on with them through reasoned discourse with others or good reading that would explicate the issue to the extent you needed at a given moment. This is good advice on a general level, for all issues and topics, so that one can get to the bottom of things!

I don't think the issue of the Trinity in particular is off-topic though - in fact it is profundly new and unique to Christianity, a revelation about God's own being. Yet, the importance of the subject is so great that it really deserves a lengthy discussion on its own.

So here it is, please go to the thread [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=111156"][b]How Can We Know God, The Trinity?[/b][/url], make it yours Mark (I couldn't find an existing one the subject and I put it in the Debate section too), and by all means do continue exploring this important topic! May the Triune God bless everyone on their journey.

[Nihil Obstat]

Whenever we discuss the Trinity, I think that the very best place to start is the Athanasian Creed.

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.