" Catholicism Is Nothing New "

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297042505' post='2209514']
(my head is full of useless, disjointed information like that)

(they typically don't; an inconsistency in their line of reasoning).
[/quote]

Bringing the pieces together, that's a part of building up the Church!

I approve of using inconsistencies to make people question themselves, that by formulating their questions and concerns better (on their own) they can finally "get it". Until a person does open up to a certain question nothing the other says will be able to make much difference since it's not a problem for them.

I've a small, dialogical and disjointed, text about faith and reason in the works but I need to keep searching the forum for where this subject has already been discussed first.

Much love to you!

[Tally Marx]

For future reference, and to keep events in perspective as regards timeline, I find [url="http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/churchhistory.html"]THIS[/url] useful.

More regarding the early history and influence of the Church later.

[Tally Marx]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Here's a quick one:
[size="3"][font="Calibri"][/font][/size]
As everybody knows, a pagan religion is characterized mainly by a belief in multiple deities. Some people don’t understand the difference between the doctrine of the Trinity and the idea of a pagan triad. But, the difference is extreme. Pagan triads were groups of three [i]distinct[/i] gods who were related in some way, a sort of “family”. Take the Roman Capitoline triad, for example: Jupiter was the father, Juno the mother, and Minerva the daughter. There were also triune gods; one god whose different aspects were emphasized by depicting him as three different characters. Today, one can find this concept in Wicca; the triple Goddess, each stressing the aspects of the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. Most people just glance at the concept of a pagan triune or triad and the doctrine of the Trinity, and therein lies the confusion. The Trinity is three Persons in one God. Not three gods, not one person with three characteristics. But three Persons in One God. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]It doesn’t help that the idea of three Persons in One God goes beyond the limits of human reason (not against reason, merely beyond it). It is easy to grasp the concept of three different gods, or even one god with three defining characteristics. The concept of the Trinity cannot be grasped, however, and lots of people, to reduce the doctrine to an understandable level, replace it with a triad or triune. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Nevertheless, the difference is there. To say that Catholicism contributed nothing new to the world in the way of doctrine is absurd. Abraham’s idea of One God was radical in his time, and the Christian/Catholic idea of the Trinity was radical to the Jews and pagans. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Evidence of the Trinity can be found years before anyone believed it, though (Genesis: “Let us make man in [i]our[/i] image”); it was claimed by Jesus Christ (John 10:30: “The Father and I are One”); [url="http://catholic-resources.org/John/Patristics-Trinity.html"]HERE[/url] is info on the Church’s defining the doctrine.

I can look up more details if anyone wants me to.
[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]
Pax et bonum,
~Tally Marx



Other pagan triads:

1) Classical Greel Olympic Triad: Zeus, Athena, Apollo
2) Egyptian: Osiris, Isis, Horus
3) Roman pleibian triad:
4) Julian triads: a) Venis Genetrix, Divus lulius, Clementia ceasaris (b) Divus lilius, Divi filius, Gensus Augusti, etc.
5) Hindu: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva
6) Taoism: The Three Pure Ones
7) Thelemic: Nuit, Hadit, Ra Hoor Khuit

....there's actually too many to name. Pagan gods were also grouped in fours, fives, or more.

[/size][/font]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297132600' post='2209922']


[size="3"][font="Calibri"]It doesn't help that the idea of three Persons in One God goes beyond the limits of human reason (not against reason, merely beyond it). It is easy to grasp the concept of three different gods, or even one god with three defining characteristics. [b]The concept of the Trinity cannot be grasped[/b], however, and lots of people, to reduce the doctrine to an understandable level, replace it with a triad or triune. [/font][/size]

[/quote]

[size="3"]How do we know the description of the Trinity is beyond comprehension, if it is beyond comprehension? That's like saying that a particular theory of physics is beyond comprehension, then who theorised it? Can you point me to a scripture that states that teh Trinity is beyond comprehension, is not a triune or triad. Please I'm fascinated![/size]

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297140179' post='2209971']
[size="3"]How do we know the description of the Trinity is beyond comprehension, if it is beyond comprehension? That's like saying that a particular theory of physics is beyond comprehension, then who theorised it? Can you point me to a scripture that states that teh Trinity is beyond comprehension, is not a triune or triad. Please I'm fascinated![/size]
[/quote]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Any theory of Physics was developed by man and therefore can be understood by man.[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]However, the doctrine of the Trinity was not something man developed-- it is a Mystery of Divine Revelation.[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]And it is a Mystery! We can no more fully comprehend how Three Persons can exist in One God than we can fully comprehend how something that tastes, smells, and feels like bread and wine is in actuality the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. We haven't experienced it. There's nothing we can compare it to, no simile to bring it down to our level. There's no way to draw it, or illustrate it, or diagram it. If you think finite man can fully comprehend the nature of an Infinite Being, then please explain it to me. I'd love to know! But, I don't think you can explain it and I don't think I would comprehend it. That does not mean it does not make sense or that it is stupid. It just means that our finite human minds cannot understand it. We are too stupid to understand the sense of it. Not against reason; beyond it. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]I forget which saint it was (and I am kicking myself for it now) but there was a saint who once tried to understand the Mystery of the Trinity as he was walking along the beach. As he was pondering, he saw a little boy running back and forth from the water to the sand, trying to fill up with water a hole he had dug. But, every time he poured a bucket in, the sand would just absorb the water and it would all leak out the hole. However, the child insisting on trying to fill the hole with water. The saint, after watching the child go back and forth for several minutes, said, "That hole cannot hold the water. It is useless to try to fill it." Then the child stood up, looked him in the eye, and said solemnly, "Just as this hole cannot be filled, so is the human mind incapable of understanding the Mystery of God." ….or something like that. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Again: [i]Not [b]against[/b] reason, merely [b]beyond [/b]it. [/i][/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]If we were capable of understanding everything God revealed to us on a complete and mathematical level, there would be no reason for the supernatural gift of Faith.
[/font][/size]


Pax et bonum,
~Tally Marx

Edited February 8, 2011 by Tally Marx

[Carolyn]

Hi, there. Hopefully I can help a little since this is an area of interest for me.

Arguments I have heard are:
1) The Church adopted pagan practices and beliefs to get more converts, until she herself became pagam (Syncretism)
2) Mary is the goddess Gaia
3) Mary is the goddess Ishtar
4) Catholics worship statues
5) Catholics believe in human sacrificing and cannibalism
6) There were bad popes in the Middle Ages, which made them pagan.
7) The Mass is a pagan ritual
8) Christmas and Easter were pagan holidays
9) Catholics worship the Sun God
10) The rosary is pagan

1) pagan: Just heard this one the other day. I respond that religions tend to borrow beliefs, symbols, and practices from other religions with which they are in contact and are often indelibly changed by this contact. With the sort of syntheses and symbioses that take place, it can sometimes be difficult to know whether one's beliefs are rooted in one particular cosmology or another. Look, for example, at what happened in Haiti when Catholicism was introduced to people who practiced their own West African Traditional Religions. Haitian Vodou experienced the dissimulation of African beliefs under the guise of Catholic ones, which to a certain extent, still affects popular Haitian Catholicism today. I think a similar argument is made regarding pagan practices in the Roman Cathoic Church today. The general belief among religious scholars today is that all religions are, in this sense, "bastardized" (not my choice of word).

3) Ishtar: Oftentimes this statement is made regarding the prevalence of Mary in the Church. The argument is that the Israelite religion did not have any sort of belief that would postulate a belief in Mary as Catholics have (barring the Shekinah, which many associate with the Holy Spirit, or at times, with Jesus). Local religions such as those of the Canaanites, however, did have a belief in goddesses such as Ishtar and Innana. The argument is strengthend by the fact that these goddesses were often given titles such as "Queen of Heaven" and "Morning Star," which were later applied to Our Lady. Images of Horus on Isis's lap also resemble those of Jesus on Our Lady's lap. Syncretism seems to be the key argument here.

6) Popes we're not so proud of: Yes, they existed. Sixtus IV was the first pope to put a license on brothels and apply a tax for priests keeping mistresses. He also established the sale of indulgences. Alexander VI was one of the most controversial Renaissance popes as he had seven children by at least two mistresses. Under Pope Paul III, the Council of Trent (1545-1563) addressed these issues, which were among those which Luther protested. I don't know, however, whether this would make this pagan

9) sun god: Also heard this one the other day. Monstrance, obelisk in St. Peter's Square, the idea that Constantine's conversion was not completely sincere and that he continued to worship the sun and preserved some customs under Christian guises. I've heard this kind of evidence used with regard to this issue.

Well, that's all I can think of. I tried to get my facts right, but of course, they may not all be. Anyways, hope this helps!

Carolyn

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297191719' post='2210180']
[font="Calibri"][size="3"]However, the doctrine of the Trinity was not something man developed-- it is a Mystery of Divine Revelation.[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]And it is a Mystery! [/font][/size]


Pax et bonum,
~Tally Marx
[/quote]
[size="3"]What I'm asking is, how do we know that we can't understand[/size]?[size="3"] What's to say that it is not very simple but just hasn't been revealed to anybody[/size]?[size="3"] Did Jesus say "Don't you worry about that, you wouldn't understand it even if I told you." ?? If you are going to give a person a present, will you not keep it secret until the appointed time? Please explain to me the source of this belief that we cannot comprehend.

[/size][size="3"][font="Calibri"][quote]Again: [i]Not [b]against[/b] reason, merely [b]beyond [/b]it. [/i][/quote][i] [/i][/font][/size]
[size="3"]I have a little difficulty with the comprehension of a trinity of reasons. I would have thought that a thing was reasonable or not reasonable? Reasonable reason should not be beyond reason because ...well it's reasonable! LOL.
[/size]
[quote][size="3"][font="Calibri"]If we were capable of understanding everything God revealed to us on a complete and mathematical level, there would be no reason for the supernatural gift of Faith. [/font][/size][/quote]

[size="3"]Faith is needed because God wants us to love him. Love has to be given by free choice, it cannot be bought, forced or encouraged in anyway. A person with a lot of money seeking a partner may keep their wealth secret so as to not cloud the thoughts of a potential suitor, [/size][size="3"]to be sure that they choose them not the wealth.[/size][size="3"] You cannot forcibly marry someone and force their love. They will most likely treat you with contempt. God wants us to love him because we love him, not because of the eternal life of bliss that he is capable of granting us. I personally like simplicity and although I think God is a.wesome, I also think that he is very easy to comprehend--viz Love! Faith is the permission to believe or not believe. Faith equals free choice. I don't think an understanding of God would compromise faith but it could possibly sway it. It's much harder to believe something that is not clearly understood than something that is, but that does not mean we can't if it were to be revealed to us at a time when it did not matter.[/size]

Edited February 9, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[4588686]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297191719' post='2210180']


[size="3"][font="Calibri"]I forget which saint it was (and I am kicking myself for it now) but there was a saint who once tried to understand the Mystery of the Trinity as he was walking along the beach. As he was pondering, he saw a little boy running back and forth from the water to the sand, trying to fill up with water a hole he had dug. But, every time he poured a bucket in, the sand would just absorb the water and it would all leak out the hole. However, the child insisting on trying to fill the hole with water. The saint, after watching the child go back and forth for several minutes, said, "That hole cannot hold the water. It is useless to try to fill it." Then the child stood up, looked him in the eye, and said solemnly, "Just as this hole cannot be filled, so is the human mind incapable of understanding the Mystery of God." ….or something like that. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Again: [i]Not [b]against[/b] reason, merely [b]beyond [/b]it. [/i][/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]If we were capable of understanding everything God revealed to us on a complete and mathematical level, there would be no reason for the supernatural gift of Faith.
[/font][/size]


Pax et bonum,
~Tally Marx
[/quote]

That supposedly happened to St. Augustine.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1297256515' post='2210544']
That supposedly happened to St. Augustine.
[/quote]

It is Augustine, but the story isn't like that, if I recall correctly.

The boy was trying to empty out the ocean and Augustine said that the ocean would be long gone before we could exhaust all that can be said or known about God.

The immenseness of the ocean, in a way that cannot be encompassed by man's grasp, served to illustrate the infiniteness of God's being and wisdom.

That's the way I remember it at least. Augustine moments...

Here's how Peter Kreeft put it:

[quote name='Peter Kreeft']
Augustine tells of a vision of seeing a little boy at a beach scooping up the ocean thimbleful by thimbleful and emptying it out on the sand. Then he sees an angel who tells him that this boy will have emptied out the entire ocean long before Augustine has exhausted what can be said about God.[/quote]

I knew I had forgotten how God came into the picture since the boy didn't bring up the subject: it was between an angel and Augustine! I believe he slept much better that night.

Edited February 9, 2011 by ExCorde

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297223086' post='2210461']
[size="3"]What I'm asking is, how do we know that we can't understand[/size]?
[/quote]

[size="2"]A Mystery isn't a riddle or a secret! A Mystery is a reality that surpasses understanding, this means that it is continuously inexhaustible. So in a way, there's nothing to solve or get completely. There will always be more and you will always be at the beginning. I love this! Thank You Lord for the Mystery You are. Thank You for never being the same, never boring, and yet no matter how full of surprises You are, there's nothing more to You than absolute faithfulness. See, the Mystery is what gets you to pray to someone you love - or at least it should!
[/size]
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297223086' post='2210461']
[size="3"]I have a little difficulty with the comprehension of a trinity of reasons. I would have thought that a thing was reasonable or not reasonable? Reasonable reason should not be beyond reason because ...well it's reasonable! LOL.
[size="2"][/quote][/size]

[/size][size="2"]I can try giving you my "reasonable" take on the Trinity. It's a bit strange though, but it's all about "God is Love". This is a result of my thinking and prayer life, so don't use it unless a bishop tells you it's ok... But hey maybe it helps to see how something can be reasonable enough in that we have intelligence and experience of the creation that reflects God's being, and yet still be a Mystery.

Love cannot Love itself, and Love is free. So Love needs a free person but not just one person. And yet not even two persons are enough because Love is directed for the good of the other and in the same direction it aims for the fruitfulness of the Love two persons share. And this fruit is Love as well. So when there's three persons, Love is sublime and complete. Love loves Love but doesn't love just another: Love loves Love that mutually loves Love. Love becomes Love when it loves another together. God is Trinity.

I warned ya, it's kinda mystical... And yet, at the same time, it perfectly reveals what a "family" is and how we are God's reflection in the deepest way (and, most importantly, just how sacred sex is). I don't think you'll find any ancient religion teaching something like that, but do let me know!
[/size]
[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297223086' post='2210461']
[size="3"]Faith is needed because God wants us to love him.[/size][/quote]

[size="2"]Along with what I said before, we could also talk about why reason needs faith without being defficient. Our reason is appropriate to our nature. But it is reasonable to trust. Faith is another word for trust. Faith is living that relationship - the relationship makes sense, it's reasonable in some ways, but to be intimately understood it necessitates belief. Belief is the movement of the soul, by grace, into the acceptance of the revealed mysteries. Belief is more than knowing since it is brought into being by God, but apart from that it's very much like it. Faith is also near but it means obedience. In this sense devils believe - they have at some point received the light of the knowledge of God - but do not have faith, which asks for, first of all, the humility of knowing who you are in relationship to another.

Anyway what this have to do with reason is that you can't do everything yourself. Since God simply doesn't fit in your head, you're perpetually in need of His assistance. That's the gist of it.

Now let's back to history, I'm still working on more sources! Welcome to the thread Carolyn! I'll comment on your great post later.[/size]

Edited February 9, 2011 by ExCorde

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297223086' post='2210461']
[size="3"] I would have thought that a thing was reasonable or not reasonable? Reasonable reason should not be beyond reason because ...well it's reasonable! LOL.
[/size][/quote]

Our use of reason is limited. Something can be completely reasonable (for God) but we just not understand it. Our lack of understanding doesn't mean it is against reason (be it ours or God's); it doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means that we cannot understand it. It is beyond our comprehension, but not against reality/truth.

ExCorde answered eveything else very well, and I have nothing to add. Except, perhaps, to stress again that an Infinite Nature cannot be understood by a Finite Mind. The Finite cannot understand the Infinite.

[Didacus]

Pride is a mortal sin.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297295201' post='2210704']
Something can be completely reasonable (for God) but we just not understand it.
[/quote]

String theory may be reasonable even though I don't understand it. Just because I can't understand, doesn't make it unreasonable or beyond reason.

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1297295201' post='2210704']
ExCorde answered eveything else very well, and I have nothing to add.
[/quote]
Do I assume that you cannot quote the source of how you know that we cannot comprehend God?

Edited February 10, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[ExCorde]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1297334545' post='2210918']
we cannot comprehend God?
[/quote]

Mark, rephrase that for me, please. What is your thought on the nature of God in relation to our own, exactly?

More random bits to keep in mind (taken from another thread):

[quote name='JeffCR07' timestamp='1111122212' post='549337']
hahaha, I can't tell you the number of times I've had to explain that we don't "kill" or "re-sacrifice" Jesus each week, but rather, we enter into that [i]one[/i] sacrifice of 2000 years ago, which is made eternal by virtue of Christ's Ascension into Heaven.
[/quote]


[quote name='JeffCR07' timestamp='1111122810' post='549345']
ha, thats the slippery slope right there. Ever gotten this?

Worship of Mary leads the conversation to Worship of Saints

Worship of Saints leads the conversation to Worship for the Dead

Worship for the Dead leads the conversation to Ancestral Worship

Ancestral Worship leads the conversation to Paganism


So obviously Catholics are just thickly veiled Pagans
[/quote]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='ExCorde' timestamp='1297371770' post='2211042']
Mark, rephrase that for me, please. What is your thought on the nature of God in relation to our own, exactly?
[/quote]
He made us in his image. We are 'Mini me' albeit imperfect replica's. In the 'Stations of the Cross', Jesus refers to me as 'His other self' and challenges me to try to emulate him, but what he asks is within my capability he does not expect me to do all the things he did. He asked saints to do profound things, he only requests small things from a small person such as myself. He does not expect me to be a 'Damien of Molokai' who by the way is a favourite of mine more for his human weakness than his sacrifice of love. (Note:- It was something in the film which may or may not be true that I identified with.)


[quote]More random bits to keep in mind (taken from another thread):[/quote]

Teh person is answering soemone who has a very poor understanding. 'They' lack comprehension or at least feign to do so. This does not make it incomprehensible. When someone questions me on the Transubstantiation, I would think the answer. "It's incomprehensible, it is a mystery." would be possibly the worst answer I could give. I would much rather give my version, even if it is only partially correct but not in doctrinal error.

Please don't misunderstand I'm not saying you or Tally are wrong, I'm just fascinated to know and study the reason for this belief that God is incomprehensible for my own curiosity and more importantly my understanding and learning.