The Catholic Church

[CatherineM]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296513036' post='2207197']
They say our loved ones in Purgatory have powerful prayers for us. Though he could be in Heaven, who knows...

That is so a w esome. You two were very close, I take it?

Curious, was he praying it very meditatively, slowly, lovingly, earnestly?
[/quote]
It was in Gaelic actually. That's how he said the rosary. It was warm and familiar and comforting. I still miss him everyday.

[thessalonian]

The ones I have heard of including the one posted above do not seem to have reached a point of illumination or where they have been judged completely.

[Sarah147]

If you are looking for that, you'd have to refer to the Saints that had dreams or visions or visits from those on the other side.


I've read that those in Purgatory are visited by the Blessed Virgin and receive much comfort from her. I have not heard of them seeing Jesus, but not to say it doesn't happen, which I don't know.

There was a story of a Saint that asked God to let a soul in Hell have an experience of Heaven and Jesus; it was granted and they couldn't bare it; they ended up begging to be put back in Hell.

Edited February 1, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296523368' post='2207255']
If you are looking for that, you'd have to refer to the Saints that had dreams or visions or visits from those on the other side.


I've read that those in Purgatory are visited by the Blessed Virgin and receive much comfort from her. I have not heard of them seeing Jesus, but not to say it doesn't happen, which I don't know.

There was a story of a Saint that asked God to let a soul in Hell have an experience of Heaven and Jesus; it was granted and they couldn't bare it; they ended up begging to be put back in Hell.
[/quote]

The soul must have been a real weirdo troll, poor soul! Hard to imagine anything other than satan being that screwed up.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1296556251' post='2207359']
The soul must have been a real weirdo troll, poor soul! Hard to imagine anything other than satan being that screwed up.
[/quote]


Just imagine the horror of standing before our a w esome, Holy, perfect, loving God...and looking so filthy and dirty, and unlike God. The embarassment, shame, horror, regret, etc. must have been awful. And also to experience what you rejected and will be without F O R E V E R. The pain of that choice but be agonizing! The constant reminder that you could have had all of this... I think the best they can do is to try to totally forget God, forget all they missed out on, all so the pain won't be as bad. I would think it would lessen the despair they suffer. They say it is the mercy of God that souls can go to Hell; He respects their freewill, and that's where they choose to be.

[YMNolan]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296583454' post='2207451']
Just imagine the horror of standing before our a w esome, Holy, perfect, loving God...and looking so filthy and dirty, and unlike God. The embarassment, shame, horror, regret, etc. must have been awful. And also to experience what you rejected and will be without F O R E V E R. The pain of that choice but be agonizing! The constant reminder that you could have had all of this... I think the best they can do is to try to totally forget God, forget all they missed out on, all so the pain won't be as bad. I would think it would lessen the despair they suffer. They say it is the mercy of God that souls can go to Hell; He respects their freewill, and that's where they choose to be.
[/quote]

Well that's exactly it, it's our choice. And if someone so mired and steeped in sin as someone already in hell were to stand next to Almighty God, the reality of their unworthiness would be so incredible and amplified that they could never genuinely proclaim their desire to remain in heaven, even they know it's an infinitely better place to be.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296583454' post='2207451']
Just imagine the horror of standing before our a w esome, Holy, perfect, loving God...and looking so filthy and dirty, and unlike God. The embarassment, shame, horror, regret, etc. must have been awful. And also to experience what you rejected and will be without F O R E V E R. The pain of that choice but be agonizing! The constant reminder that you could have had all of this... I think the best they can do is to try to totally forget God, forget all they missed out on, all so the pain won't be as bad. I would think it would lessen the despair they suffer. They say it is the mercy of God that souls can go to Hell; He respects their freewill, and that's where they choose to be.
[/quote]

Yeah true, I'm only surmising but I visualise that if a person goes through life hating and scorning and rejecting God then at death it kind of sets like concrete. In other words you don't get to change your mind, because you don't have one. All you know is emptiness and the pain of isolation from God, you are what you made yourself in life. As far as feeling unworthy before God I can understand that. I've been in the presence of nuns that have made me feel that way. How much more in the presence of God?

[dairygirl4u2c]

there's not really been much discussion as to why the CC or things of that nature aren't mentioned in near death experiences.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1296864831' post='2208878']
there's not really been much discussion as to why the CC or things of that nature aren't mentioned in near death experiences.
[/quote]

Did teh CC have a near death experience?

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296494788' post='2207022']
It's scary, and that's why it is sooo important to strive for holiness, breaking attachments to sin, fighting pride which is the leader of sins. I fear for those in the mentality of "I'll change in my older years/deathbed." You hope and think you can, but once you are so attached and set in your ways/hardened, even when God asks you, you could easily ask for Hell. Scary.[/size]
[/quote]
Scary, indeed! I wonder if even the hesitation at God asking you for your choice is the choice within itself. If God asks you if it'll be Him or your sins, and you have even take a second to think back and savor one last memory of that old life... That could very well be it. All the more reason to practice restraint here and now.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1296521225' post='2207239']
It was in Gaelic actually. That's how he said the rosary. It was warm and familiar and comforting. I still miss him everyday.
[/quote]
That's beautiful! I'm very happy that you were able to have that experience with your dad. Mine passed away nearly six years ago, and we miss him so much. Last night I actually woke up very happy in the middle of the night and thanking God, because I had a dream that my dad met me at the airport and he just gave me the biggest hug. Things like that almost make it like he's never been gone.

[Ash Wednesday]

As far as afterlife "not being very Catholic" -- many people that see the afterlife only see the tip of the iceberg. I think by God's will, people experience all that they can possibly know or comprehend at the time, much like God has not revealed the fullness of truth to mankind overnight.

Fr. Stephen Scheier had a very stunning near death experience that chills me to the bone. He was a priest who got in a car accident and would have gone to hell but Mary interceded for him and he returned to this world and was given a second chance and galvanized his commitment as a priest. It was not an "un-Catholic" NDE. There is also a story of a priest from India who had a NDE and saw his guardian angel, St. Joseph, the Virgin Mary, heaven, hell and purgatory. I haven't read his full story though, but again it is not true that people don't have Catholic NDE's.

Some don't see Jesus, some just see relatives or loved ones that send them back. People's experiences with this vary so it isn't anything we will ever fully know what to make of or have a full conclusion of.

[ExCorde]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1296864831' post='2208878']
there's not really been much discussion as to why the CC or things of that nature aren't mentioned in near death experiences.
[/quote]

Apart from what has been mentioned already, I think you should ask yourself what exactly do you expect to learn from near-death experiences.

I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything, but I kind of understand near-death experiences as the poor man's miracle. They are quite common and, to me, don't sound that extraordinary at all as far as signs of God are concerned.

I'm not the kind of person who pays much attention to visions, but I'd rather look for "signs of the beyond" in those events from the lives of saints that are not only unexplainable, but have a real purpose, such as a message to turn your life more completely to God.

To answer your question directly though, there are no real miracles outside of "CC" environments. There are no microscopic image imprints in 16th century cloth (Our Lady of Guadalupe). There are no unforgeable images (the Shroud of Turin and others). There are no eucharistic miracles, no signs of the son (Fatima), no uncorrupt corpses... Those are the things you should be looking at and asking yourself why they really don't happen in quite the same amazing way except for in the "CC".

About conversions at the time of death:

I think there's a choice even at death but since you are the same person as before, if you're in mortal sin you will have an extreme difficulty to say "yes" to God's question since you might not even have the "ears" to hear the question from Him.

In the same way, I imagine that NDE non-Catholics will often be unable to "read" what's happening to them even if there were distinctively Catholic elements in them. A lot comes down to the words they use and interpretations they make on their subjective narratives. You really need to understand that NDE is at the most just the antechamber to whatever actually comes next and therefore needn't prove anything.

[Sarah147]

Dust ought to engrave this quote on the top of the debate board:

[b]"Unless you believe, you will not understand - St. Augustine"


[/b]




Here is something I just read online:

God has already done His part; it is now up to you to [b]receive[/b] the truth by [b]faith[/b] and make it a reality in your life. Amen!

But if we don’t respond in [b]faith[/b] to what has been provided by [b]grace[/b], we won’t [b]receive[/b].



Interestingly, Fr. Corapi said he no longer "debates" with people. He just gives the Truth, and leaves the rest up to them.

Edited February 6, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1297036191' post='2209471']
Dust ought to engrave this quote on the top of the debate board:

[b]"Unless you believe, you will not understand - St. Augustine"


[/b]
[/quote]
Yes, people of doubt are always looking for reassurance. Ideally one need not concern about the after life, but to give ones trust wholly to Jesus.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think I should also add to what I posted above -- the argument that some of these experiences are a physical manifestation should also be considered. However I disagree with the skeptics that use this as proof that there is no afterlife.

I think some near death experiences are legit -- but it's also true that Satan can appear as an angel of light, especially to the hurt and vulnerable. A number of people have had experiences where they started off having a pleasant experience but it transformed into something pretty awful.

So again still...in general, NDE's haven't brought us anything concrete and are still very much a mystery.