Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 dominus pax, also i think i read in the catechism of the catholic church also states that salvation can be attained outside the church, and i agree, as far as i'm aware the minimum biblical requirements are to be baptise and believe and i guess that causes us to seek god in prayer,and possibly nature,others and possibly the word of god as well,think of it that maybe there a 7 precepts of salvation we know to be baptised and believe is the first step,and we are all on different steps, amybe some practise a few some all 7 some just the first step, we are not to judge, jesus states he whom is for you can not be against you when the apostles complained there where people casting out jesus in his name whom weren't listening to the apostles,of course jesus means whom is for him can not be against him. Hope that helps you all. And also biblicaly jesus said when the apostles asked him "what about those whom don't get baptised" and esus replied that they would be judged by the law written on there own hearts. God Bless JC "seek and you shall find" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1296736867' post='2208165'] dominus pax, [b]also i think i read in the catechism of the catholic church also states that salvation can be attained outside the church, and i agree[/b], as far as i'm aware the minimum biblical requirements are to be baptise and believe and i guess that causes us to seek god in prayer,and possibly nature,others and possibly the word of god as well,think of it that maybe there a 7 precepts of salvation we know to be baptised and believe is the first step,and we are all on different steps, amybe some practise a few some all 7 some just the first step, we are not to judge, jesus states he whom is for you can not be against you when the apostles complained there where people casting out jesus in his name whom weren't listening to the apostles,of course jesus means whom is for him can not be against him. Hope that helps you all. And also biblicaly jesus said when the apostles asked him "what about those whom don't get baptised" and esus replied that they would be judged by the law written on there own hearts. God Bless JC "seek and you shall find" [/quote] This is technically false. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We have to understand that properly, and it doesn't necessarily have to mean that "only Catholics who go to Church every Sunday" will be saved any nobody else, but it is something we *must* believe as Catholics. "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say." (Kallistos Ware) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296710690' post='2208094'] So basically every non-Catholic marriage is Fornication if you think about it. [/quote] That makes Protestants the most serious fornicators under God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) [quote]My Grandma used to say that people who tell others they are going to Hell get to cut straight to the front of the line.[/quote] Your Grandma rocks. Edited February 10, 2011 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1295816858' post='2203538'] That's interesting. I would say a lot of protestants are in this boat. Probally 70 percent. [/quote] 70 percent of Protestants know in their heart of hearts that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and yet reject her anyway? I seriously doubt that. I know you later brought it down to 10-15%, but even so that seems ridiculously high. I know of plenty of people who convert. I would think that...upon discovering the truth residing in the Catholic Church, the majority of people who make some moves towards joining. Most Protestants who reject Catholicism do so because they think the Church is in grave error and leads souls astray. In other words...they steer clear not because they knowingly reject her, but because they reject the lies and misconceptions they have of her. Being in error is a problem, but it is not typically a mortal sin. There are Protestants I know who are very lukewarm about faith and don't seem to have much interest in God one way or the other. But there are also many Protestants I know who love Jesus and strive to follow him as best they can in their lives. Just as their are many Catholics who are Catholic in name only and don't have much faith, but there are also many Catholics who have a vibrant faith and follow God and repent of their sins. In this case, what church one attends on Sunday is probably not the most accurate tool for assessing who goes to heaven, but then...that's a call I feel I have no business making anyway. God judges all hearts. Not me. Certainly I have opinions on the matter, but I won't be heartbroken to find out I'm wrong. I'll trust Jesus to take care of that. Edited February 10, 2011 by MithLuin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296710690' post='2208094'] You know I have often wondered if it was better to not tell a Protestant that their marriage really isn't valid. Because the minister who married them is separated from the Church. Hence, separated from Jesus Christ and his Sacraments. Furthermore, they were not married by God. So basically every non-Catholic marriage is Fornication if you think about it. But its probably best not to tell anyone...because if they don't know then I think God may have mercy on them and not send them to hell for it. They may just have to settle for Purgatory. [/quote] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1297350865' post='2210965'] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... [/quote] For that matter, we wouldn't consider a non-baptized Hindu couple who are married in their faith and live chastely to be fornicators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1297350865' post='2210965'] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... [/quote] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297392957' post='2211203'] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony? [/quote] 100% certain that the church recognizes protestant baptism. as long as the protestant sect believes in the trinity and baptises in the name of the trinity, then the baptism is 100% valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1297393353' post='2211207'] 100% certain that the church recognizes protestant baptism. as long as the protestant sect believes in the trinity and baptises in the name of the trinity, then the baptism is 100% valid. [/quote] Do you have a source to verify this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297393608' post='2211211'] Do you have a source to verify this? [/quote] http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1271.htm 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297392957' post='2211203'] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony? [/quote] [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297393608' post='2211211'] Do you have a source to verify this? [/quote] I thought that was sorta common knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297397155' post='2211231'] I thought that was sorta common knowledge. [/quote] Never knew. And besides... I was thinking that Protestant Marriage's were invalid. I still haven't seen any proof that they are valid. Edited February 11, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297398807' post='2211249'] Never knew. And besides... I was thinking that Protestant Marriage's were invalid. I still haven't seen any proof that they are valid. [/quote] I read some stuff in a book about that, but I don't trust the author because he's *very* lackadaisical about reverence at Communion. Catherine can probably comment on it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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