Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295837649' post='2203652'] This expressly says that smoking in moderation is OK. It's not! People die even from side stream smoke! That's your view and I am not saying you are not entitled to make it. I'm saying one cigarette can cause a person to have a stroke because it often raises the blood pressure to unnatural levels. You are inferring that I cannot tell someone that smoking at any level is dangerous. I can put forward any view I like within forum guidelines, no-one is compelling anyone to take notice, least of all me. I am not threatening or attempting to scare people, I believe what I say. My experiences are not unique, they can apply to anyone. In Oz, smoking in the presence of children is now illegal. I haven't made any decisions or forced anyone, I have merely stated a view point in conflict to yours. This incidentally is the reverse case to the one about making jokes related to the occult. [/quote] So if someone enjoyed a cigar now and then, or a pipe, say once a month, he is certainly going to die from his hobby? You will notice that I've stated on multiple occasions that you are more than entitled to your opinion and more than entitled to act upon that belief for yourself. However you are not entitled to make choices as to how other people are going to utilize that same information of potential risks. That is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295816630' post='2203534'] Smoking cannot be done in moderation. My father smoked 1 or 2 cigarettes a day and died from emphysema. Smoking is the worst thing you can do to your body. That is all I have to say on the subject. [/quote] And George Burns smoked 10 to 15 cigars a [i]day[/i] all his life and lived to be 100. He could've been hit by a bus when he was 74. Jack Benny smoked Lucky Strikes for most of his life. Died when he was 80. Nobody gets off this rock alive. Is inhaling cigarette smoke bad in the long run? Yes. But the Church, even the Catechism, doesn't condemn tobacco. Just its abuse. The same with every other form of substance abuse. ~Sternhauser Edited January 24, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295837649' post='2203652'] This expressly says that smoking in moderation is OK. It's not![/quote] The Catechism says otherwise. "The virtue of temperance disposes us to [i]avoid every kind of [b]excess[/b][/i][b]: [/b] the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine." The idea of excess in food, alcohol, tobacco or medicine implies that these things can licitly be used in moderation. ~Sternhauser Edited January 24, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295825562' post='2203585'] On the subject of smoking, I was a hopeless addict until I started to die from it. It still took around 3 years to beat it. It is still a danger to me, one cigarette is all it would take and I would be hooked again. Trust me there is no safe level of smoking and you never properly recover from it. I still have respiratory problems after 15 years. Cigarettes give no real pleasure, people only feed their addiction and they damage the health of others. People get cancer from side stream smoke. Getting to work is necessary, smoking is not. Dangerous sports are usually for a natural high, it can have numerous benefits as well as the risks. There also has to be a point where we do say it's their own free choice to weigh the benefits against the danger. [/quote] FYI, smoke doesnt have any inherently addictive ingredients, and not all smokeables are created equal. you said that cigarrettes are extremely addictive. This is true. This is caused mostly by large amounts of dangerous chemical additives in cigarrette smoke. Natural tobacco does not share all the same destructive, addictive qualities as what you find in cigarettes, much less addictive. Not to mention, Marijuana is not chemically addictive. It is only addictive in the same way that any other habit is, like always having a cup of tea in the morning, or picking your nose. Cigarettes will eventually have a tangible hold on both your body and mind, marijuana will only ever get to the point where you are in the habit of using it. As far as harmful substances go, many respected scientists have placed alcohol at the top of the list. but there is no reason to ban it, even if we could effectively do so. I do not like the idea of people such as yourself, having bad anecdotal experiences with things, and thus deciding that others should not be allowed to use them. You hear many people doing the same thing with motorcycles, etc. "oh no, i got on a bike once with no experience and surprise surprise i fell off and it hurt. you should never ride a bike" even in the case of harder drugs, most of the bad things associated with drug addiction are not related to the qualities of the drug itself, but rather what you must do to acquire it due to it's legality. stealing to afford its ridiculously marked up price(because it is illegal, lots of demand), dealing with ruthless drug dealers, living outside of societies laws and protections because of fear of prosecution, lack of access to healthcare, overdosing from nonstandard drug potency, or poisoning from dealers "cutting" the drug to make it last longer or seem stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295841190' post='2203674'] So if someone enjoyed a cigar now and then, or a pipe, say once a month, he is certainly going to die from his hobby? [/quote] [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295841967' post='2203684'] And George Burns smoked 10 to 15 cigars a [i]day[/i] all his life and lived to be 100. He could've been hit by a bus when he was 74. Jack Benny smoked Lucky Strikes for most of his life. Died when he was 80. Nobody gets off this rock alive. ~Sternhauser [/quote] These statements are silly, they have nothing to do with the argument [u]and you must know it.[/u] You obviously do not understand the insidious effects of tobacco addiction. Such statements usually appear when logical discussion flags. Stern will most doubt be in opposition to our society because it is suppressing free choice, but it is doing everything it can to eradicate smoking. Smoking is not totally banned only because it can't be policed in private and people do have the right to kill themselves if they desperately want too. But it is banned from public places and in cars with children. Regular graphical advertisements are displayed on T.V. and bill boards. Doctors will not give operations to heart patients who continue to smoke because they consider they are wasting their efforts and would rather give their scarce resources to people who refrain from such [u]proven[/u] destructive practices. (by extensive study and data collection) The statement that I am telling people what to do is also nonsense. I am clearly telling people what I think. I have no recourse to enforce my will nor do I have any desire to do so to people who are totally stubborn towards the empirical evidence of the dangers of smoking. And I would prefer to be guilty of overstating the dangers rather than understating which could result in a person abandoning the idea of stopping smoking. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295842383' post='2203688'] The Catechism says otherwise. "The virtue of temperance disposes us to [i]avoid every kind of [b]excess[/b][/i][b]: [/b] the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine." The idea of excess in food, alcohol, tobacco or medicine implies that these things can licitly be used in moderation. ~Sternhauser [/quote] It implies nothing of the sort, you are reading into it something that is clearly not there. It is merely concerned with [u]excesses[/u] it does not mention moderate use of dangerous substances. It is not saying that I can ingest lead or any poison in moderation. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295841967' post='2203684'] Is inhaling cigarette smoke bad[b] [s]in the long run[/s]?[/b] Yes. But the Church, even the Catechism, doesn't condemn tobacco. Just its abuse. The same with every other form of substance abuse. ~Sternhauser [/quote] I don't condemn tobacco either, just it's abuse. Tobacco is a plant created by God. I'm glad you admit that smoking is an unnatural use of your lungs and is an abuse. I agree with the determination of the Australian health authorities. If you think I do not have the right to express such a view, then you are advocating against free speech. Nihil gave an opinion, I respect his right to express it, but I am saying he is not doing smokers any favours. I cannot understand why you cannot see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295899651' post='2203876'] These statements are silly, they have nothing to do with the argument [u]and you must know it.[/u] You obviously do not understand the insidious effects of tobacco addiction. Such statements usually appear when logical discussion flags. Stern will most doubt be in opposition to our society because it is suppressing free choice, but it is doing everything it can to eradicate smoking. Smoking is not totally banned only because it can't be policed in private and people do have the right to kill themselves if they desperately want too. But it is banned from public places and in cars with children. Regular graphical advertisements are displayed on T.V. and bill boards. Doctors will not give operations to heart patients who continue to smoke because they consider they are wasting their efforts and would rather give their scarce resources to people who refrain from such [u]proven[/u] destructive practices. (by extensive study and data collection) The statement that I am telling people what to do is also nonsense. I am clearly telling people what I think. I have no recourse to enforce my will nor do I have any desire to do so to people who are totally stubborn towards the empirical evidence of the dangers of smoking. And I would prefer to be guilty of overstating the dangers rather than understating which could result in a person abandoning the idea of stopping smoking. It implies nothing of the sort, you are reading into it something that is clearly not there. It is merely concerned with [u]excesses[/u] it does not mention moderate use of dangerous substances. It is not saying that I can ingest lead or any poison in moderation. I don't condemn tobacco either, just it's abuse. Tobacco is a plant created by God. I'm glad you admit that smoking is an unnatural use of your lungs and is an abuse. I agree with the determination of the Australian health authorities. If you think I do not have the right to express such a view, then you are advocating against free speech. Nihil gave an opinion, I respect his right to express it, but I am saying he is not doing smokers any favours. I cannot understand why you cannot see that. [/quote] Mark, I think you're reading into my arguments things I have not said. I also think smoking is bad for you. I choose not to smoke because it is especially bad for me due to health issues. However, my one and only argument is that it is not within my authority to tell someone else that they cannot smoke. It is up to every individual to make that choice on their own, based on their own [i]subjective[/i] risks and benefits. Choices like this are entirely based on perceptions of empirical facts. Subjective value. Subjective utility. That is why transactions take place, and that is why differing choices in topics like this are permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295900168' post='2203884'] Mark, I think you're reading into my arguments things I have not said. I also think smoking is bad for you. I choose not to smoke because it is especially bad for me due to health issues. However, my one and only argument is that it is not within my authority to tell someone else that they cannot smoke. It is up to every individual to make that choice on their own, based on their own [i]subjective[/i] risks and benefits. Choices like this are entirely based on perceptions of empirical facts. Subjective value. Subjective utility. That is why transactions take place, and that is why differing choices in topics like this are permitted. [/quote] You're killing mark dude. Mark give up. Its over. Put in the second string. Give them some playing time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 You know I like you Mark, but I don't always like your arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295900168' post='2203884'] Mark, I think you're reading into my arguments things I have not said. I also think smoking is bad for you. I choose not to smoke because it is especially bad for me due to health issues. [/quote] If someone strongly believes in something I would have thought that giving people a warning would be the duty of a responsible person in the same way that the authorities do. People on this forum have stated on numerous occasions that it is our responsibility to point out the the errors of not obeying religious commandments and we are not forcing them to comply. Even if I am wrong, I am not causing any harm. However if I said that smoking in moderation was Okay. I would not feel that I am being responsible. You felt strongly enough about occult jokes to warn me against it. Your post here is thanks for finally agreeing with me! [quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1295900362' post='2203885'] You're killing mark dude. Mark give up. Its over. Put in the second string. Give them some playing time. [/quote] I appreciate that Nihil is very popular and you wish to give support to someone you have a high regard for. Bear in mind that this is a friendly discussion. I have a very high regard for not only Nihil but also for Jlol and Stern. They are very intelligent and well informed people and they are and shall always be my friends as well as my brothers in Christ. I hold them in great esteem and value their input even in threads that I do not participate in. However it's fun to rough them up occasionally. As Christians I'm sure they appreciate some humility. There are too many results on warnings to link so I will link the AMA I'm only saying [url="http://ama.com.au/node/2234"]what the AMA says[/url]. If you disagree with me then you disagree with them. That's fine I am not making judgements on anyone. Smoking even in moderation damages your health and reduces your feeling of well being. People do not obtain pleasure from smoking they just defer the craving and or feed a habit. Did you know that when you breath in smoke it anaesthetises your lungs so that you do not feel the burning of lung cells. Thousands of poisons enter your body and cause a multitude of health issues. The smell of burning flesh can be smelt by reasonably sensitive noses. One cigarette a month can cause a sudden spike in blood pressure which could kill you instantly. Not to mention the fact that addicts will smoke while driving or engaged in other dangerous occupations which through distraction and possible temporary irritation to the eyes can multiply the risks. [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295841967' post='2203684'] And George Burns smoked 10 to 15 cigars a [i]day[/i] all his life and lived to be 100. He could've been hit by a bus when he was 74. Jack Benny smoked Lucky Strikes for most of his life. Died when he was 80. Nobody gets off this rock alive. ~Sternhauser [/quote] People have been known to exit in flight aeroplanes without a parachute and survive. I don't recommend attempting this feat. Edited January 24, 2011 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I've said all I need to say. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-lia-FEIY[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295910397' post='2203960'] I've said all I need to say. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-lia-FEIY[/media] [/quote] [img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/what.jpg?t=1295911553[/img] [img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/freeman.jpg?t=1295911514[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295910290' post='2203959']. I have a very high regard for not only Nihil but also for [b]Jlol[/b] and Stern. They are very intelligent and well informed people and they are and shall always be my friends as well as my brothers in Christ. I hold them in great esteem and value their input even in threads that I do not participate in. However it's fun to rough them up occasionally. As Christians I'm sure they appreciate some humility. [/quote] Yay! I was wondering if you had seen my reply. but if you have high regard for me, i gotta ask... [img]http://i.imgur.com/tfZrS.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1295936065' post='2204104'] Yay! I was wondering if you had seen my reply. but if you have high regard for me, i gotta ask... [/quote] Why I thought You knew I loved you! I didn't answer your post because it was too solid, it left me without a leg to stand on. You are just so awesome. [img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/funny.jpg?t=1295949756[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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