Steroids

[Guest]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1295758373' post='2203279']
Aren't you talking about "steroids" like cortisone -- which is an anti-inflammatory? They're quite a bit different than anabolic "steroids". And they can be catabolic (Cause the muscle to break down rather than build up). Here's the definition from Wikipedia.

[b]A [color="#FF0000"][color="#FF0000"]steroid[/color][/color] is a type of organic compound that contains a specific arrangement of four cycloalkane rings that are joined to each other. Examples of steroids include the[color="#000080"] dietary fat cholesterol[/color], the sex hormones[color="#000080"] estradiol [/color]and [color="#000080"]testosterone[/color], and the anti-inflammatory drug [color="#000080"]dexamethasone[/color].

The core of steroids is composed of seventeen carbon atoms bonded together that take the form of four fused rings: three cyclohexane rings (designated as rings A, B, and C in the figure to the right) and one cyclopentane ring (the D ring). The steroids vary by the functional groups attached to this four ring core and by the oxidation state of the rings. Sterols are special forms of steroids, with a hydroxyl group at position-3 and a skeleton derived from cholestane.[1]

Hundreds of distinct steroids are found in plants, animals, and fungi. All steroids are made in cells either from the sterols lanosterol (animals and fungi) or from cycloartenol (plants). Both lanosterol and cycloartenol are derived from the cyclization of the triterpene squalene.[2]
[/b]


An important thing to remember about anabolic steroids is that they are hard on your liver, and can lead to heart attacks. Both things can shorten both the quality and length of your life.

I competed in powerlifting when I was younger and I knew people who took them -- plus I've read a great deal about them for the last twenty years. Let's just say that they do have side effects -- even when taken under a doctors supervision.

I've never taken any and you couldn't pay me to take them. However I bought some weights from a competitive, and natural, powerlifter up in Los Angeles. He told me that his dad -- who's in his eighties -- was having real physical problems, and his doctor suggested anabolic steroids. He told me that his had dad started taking a mild anabolic steroid and it had helped him incredibly.

As far as building muscle the things that really limit you are the amount of food you eat, and the amount of sleep you get (More sleep equals more testosterone. [b]People who do don't get much sleep have low testosterone levels[/b]).

And you need to eat as much good quality food as you can get yourself to eat. Yes you will get fat, but you will also gain strength and muscle size. Let's face it you're not going to stay lean and gain much muscle. Sorry it just doesn't work that way. The best you can do is to "bulk up" (Get fat and gain muscle) and then do a lot of cardio, cut your calories -- and try to lose the fat without losing too much muscle. If you stay lean you won't be able to increase your muscle and strength by much.

And the idea that lots of repetitions with low weight builds muscle is a bunch of nonsense. You've got to look at it from a realistic point of view -- your body is going to try and become[b] efficient[/b] to the stress it receives. Lots of repetitions with light weight may pump up the muscles but what you're doing is endurance exercise -- and large muscles are not efficient for endurance exercise. Lean muscles with predominantly slow twitch muscle cells are efficient for endurance. Lugging around extra weight is not. A larger muscle is like a larger rope. It is useful to move a bigger weight. To make the muscle bigger you have to force it to lift a bigger and bigger weight. Remember you're not shooting for endurance so you don't have to do a lot of sets and a lot of repetitions. You can train like a powerlifter and "pyramid" your sets -- a set of ten to warm up, a set or two work sets for five reps, and a really heavy weight for one to two reps. Powerlifters may not look as big as some bodybuilders, but that's partly because they're fatter.

After working out take a good electrolyte drink like "Recharge", and try to eat within 45 minutes of working out. You'll find your workout is also better if you eat something good beforehand -- but don't overdo it.

If you wonder if this sort of training will increase your chances of getting hurt, the answer is "It sure will!". But to really get strong you have to really force things.

I got myself up to almost 250 pounds -- at 6 feet 2 inches tall. Then I gave up and decided that I didn't really feel that good at that weight. I'm back down around 200 now.
[/quote]
Thanks for pointing all this stuff out. The main steroid I was talking about was testosterone. The injectable type. With a doctor it seems as if it could be safe and little risk if not abused. But without a doctor I think anyone taking it is a fool. Let me be real clear about that.

[Hidalgo SJS]

This is a basic question that gets thrown out all of the time, with different perspectives based on your goals/

Since everyone shared their experience, I will share my thoughts.
I competed as a bodybuilder for a couple years in the NPC, but never took steroids yet competed against those who have.
After training for 8 yrs prior to actually competing, I realized steroids were not for me due to the health risks they incur.
Im going to assume you are younger (under 30 yrs old) so I will answer based off of that.

The only benefit of having most of my friends take steroids was that I came to realize why i should NOT use them:

1. Personality matters, if your a jerk, then you will be a bigger jerk on steroids.
2. Steroids like Testosterone cut off natural testosterone production, therefore you better pray you know which drug to take AFTER you finish a cycle of steroids to start your "natural" testosterone production back up. Its not just one drug (steroid) you deal with, its several.
3. They are illegal, same class as Cocaine, so prepare to go to prison. Even with your prescription, your going to want more and to get bigger, so that low dose will eventually not cut it for you. So when you get more(higher doses), you are now a criminal.
4. After your cycle is done, you will lose some of your muscular gains, causing you to be depressed and wanting to take steroids again, and again, and again, its addictive.
5. You will cause a self induced lifestyle to be better (physically) because of a chemical, not because you understand nutrition, training, and have spent years putting that to practice. Try that first before ever taking steroids.

I guess I did learn something as a Natural Bodybuilder.

[Hidalgo SJS]

Try visiting this website, follow a few training methods and most importantly follow the diets strictly, and you will make plenty of gains and save yourself a lot of heartache.

[url="http://www.bevnut.com/faq/"]http://www.bevnut.com/faq/[/url]

[Guest]

[quote name='Hidalgo SJS' timestamp='1295809981' post='2203465']
This is a basic question that gets thrown out all of the time, with different perspectives based on your goals/

Since everyone shared their experience, I will share my thoughts.
I competed as a bodybuilder for a couple years in the NPC, but never took steroids yet competed against those who have.
After training for 8 yrs prior to actually competing, I realized steroids were not for me due to the health risks they incur.
Im going to assume you are younger (under 30 yrs old) so I will answer based off of that.

The only benefit of having most of my friends take steroids was that I came to realize why i should NOT use them:

1. Personality matters, if your a jerk, then you will be a bigger jerk on steroids.
2. Steroids like Testosterone cut off natural testosterone production, therefore you better pray you know which drug to take AFTER you finish a cycle of steroids to start your "natural" testosterone production back up. Its not just one drug (steroid) you deal with, its several.
3. They are illegal, same class as Cocaine, so prepare to go to prison. Even with your prescription, your going to want more and to get bigger, so that low dose will eventually not cut it for you. So when you get more(higher doses), you are now a criminal.
4. After your cycle is done, you will lose some of your muscular gains, causing you to be depressed and wanting to take steroids again, and again, and again, its addictive.
5. You will cause a self induced lifestyle to be better (physically) because of a chemical, not because you understand nutrition, training, and have spent years putting that to practice. Try that first before ever taking steroids.

I guess I did learn something as a Natural Bodybuilder.
[/quote]
Thanks for the responce. I was just posing the question if it would be a grave sin if legal and prescribed by a doctor. I would never use testosterone without a doctor. I agree with everything you said. Props on being natural and never using. Godbless.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295807375' post='2203445']
Alcohol can be dangerous for some people too, but thank God that's not illegal.
[/quote]

The damage done to people and their lives by alcohol abuse outweighs the enjoyment you or I get out of a scotch by 10 to the (insert your favourite large number). The only reason I would agree with keeping it legal is that prohibition doesn't seem to work and breeds more evil. You could be right in wanting to legalise recreational drugs for the same reason, however in any statement for the legalisation I would point out that these things are extremely dangerous and intrinsically evil. I can tell you by first hand experience that anti-depressants are extremely dangerous. And I've gone through 12 months of hell withdrawing from them. There has been many cases where people have committed suicide and I know it is the drugs because I wished for death too to escape the horror of what was going on in my head. I think drug companies know this, but are making so much money that they keep telling us these things are safe and non-addictive. Which means they serve the devil. Prescription drugs for depression should be avoided except in extreme cases and recreational drugs should be avoided full stop especially drugs like Marijuana which are usually smoked. Smoking is also a disgusting weapon of the devil,

[quote]I'd rather let people make their own choices on the matter.[/quote]
A very well informed choice not being seduced by those who wish to make money.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295814651' post='2203507']
The damage done to people and their lives by alcohol abuse outweighs the enjoyment you or I get out of a scotch by 10 to the (insert your favourite large number). The only reason I would agree with keeping it legal is that prohibition doesn't seem to work and breeds more evil. You could be right in wanting to legalise recreational drugs for the same reason, however in any statement for the legalisation I would point out that these things are extremely dangerous and intrinsically evil. I can tell you by first hand experience that anti-depressants are extremely dangerous. And I've gone through 12 months of hell withdrawing from them. There has been many cases where people have committed suicide and I know it is the drugs because I wished for death too to escape the horror of what was going on in my head. I think drug companies know this, but are making so much money that they keep telling us these things are safe and non-addictive. Which means they serve the devil. Prescription drugs for depression should be avoided except in extreme cases and recreational drugs should be avoided full stop especially drugs like Marijuana which are usually smoked. Smoking is also a disgusting weapon of the devil,


A very well informed choice not being seduced by those who wish to make money.
[/quote]
You sound rather like a Puritan. People make a choice to abuse alcohol. It's a bad choice, but it's one they made. Alcohol itself didn't make the choice for them. The responsibility is on the individual, not the drink.
I would argue that certain hard drugs are immoral to take, but [url="http://irenaeusgsaintonge.blogspot.com/2010/12/ethical-action.html"]legality ≠ morality[/url].
I also do not think that smoking is inherently evil, as you seem to depict it. Like many things, it can be done in moderation, and the risk/benefit analysis is up to the individual.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295814895' post='2203508']
You sound rather like a Puritan. People make a choice to abuse alcohol. It's a bad choice, but it's one they made. Alcohol itself didn't make the choice for them. The responsibility is on the individual, not the drink.
I would argue that certain hard drugs are immoral to take, but [url="http://irenaeusgsaintonge.blogspot.com/2010/12/ethical-action.html"]legality ≠ morality[/url].
I also do not think that smoking is inherently evil, as you seem to depict it. Like many things, it can be done in moderation, and the risk/benefit analysis is up to the individual.
[/quote]

I think you're wrong. Our aboriginal people have been destroyed by alcohol, they can't control it, I can! which means it's not their free choice. I believe most indigenous peoples are also prone. Most road deaths are attributed to alcohol. I've seen many nice people turn into demons. Domestic violence to mention a few.
Smoking cannot be done in moderation. My father smoked 1 or 2 cigarettes a day and died from emphysema. Smoking is the worst thing you can do to your body. That is all I have to say on the subject.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295816630' post='2203534']
I think you're wrong. Our aboriginal people have been destroyed by alcohol, they can't control it, I can! which means it's not their free choice. I believe most indigenous peoples are also prone. Most road deaths are attributed to alcohol. I've seen many nice people turn into demons. Domestic violence to mention a few.
Smoking cannot be done in moderation. My father smoked 1 or 2 cigarettes a day and died from emphysema. Smoking is the worst thing you can do to your body. That is all I have to say on the subject.
[/quote]
Are you saying that the First Nations people do not have the ability to choose not to drink?
Smoking can indeed be done in moderation, as can eating desserts and fast food, and skiing (another risky activity) and driving to work.
Most activities you choose to participate in expose you to some amount of risk. It's your choice whether the risk is acceptable given the benefits you expect. If someone chooses to smoke, they are choosing to weigh an increased risk of heart disease, lung disease, etc., against short term comfort. That's their own choice. I choose not to smoke, but if someone wants to smoke in moderation I won't condemn them.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295816812' post='2203537']
Are you saying that the First Nations people do not have the ability to choose not to drink?
[/quote]
Certainly we all choose our first drink and therefore it is a trap. The difference between an alcoholic and myself is that I can choose to stop or to only drink in moderation. An alcoholic has great difficulty controlling it and can generally only do it after much destructive behaviour and the realisation of what it has done to them and much help from councilling. I believe that alcoholism is considered a mental illness! Do we get to choose our afflictions? I certainly didn't choose mine.

[quote] Smoking can indeed be done in moderation, as can eating desserts and fast food, and skiing (another risky activity) and driving to work.[/quote]

On the subject of smoking, I was a hopeless addict until I started to die from it. It still took around 3 years to beat it. It is still a danger to me, one cigarette is all it would take and I would be hooked again. Trust me there is no safe level of smoking and you never properly recover from it. I still have respiratory problems after 15 years. Cigarettes give no real pleasure, people only feed their addiction and they damage the health of others. People get cancer from side stream smoke. Getting to work is necessary, smoking is not. Dangerous sports are usually for a natural high, it can have numerous benefits as well as the risks. There also has to be a point where we do say it's their own free choice to weigh the benefits against the danger.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295825562' post='2203585']
Certainly we all choose our first drink and therefore it is a trap. The difference between an alcoholic and myself is that I can choose to stop or to only drink in moderation. An alcoholic has great difficulty controlling it and can generally only do it after much destructive behaviour and the realisation of what it has done to them and much help from councilling. I believe that alcoholism is considered a mental illness! Do we get to choose our afflictions? I certainly didn't choose mine.



On the subject of smoking, I was a hopeless addict until I started to die from it. It still took around 3 years to beat it. It is still a danger to me, one cigarette is all it would take and I would be hooked again. Trust me there is no safe level of smoking and you never properly recover from it. I still have respiratory problems after 15 years. Cigarettes give no real pleasure, people only feed their addiction and they damage the health of others. People get cancer from side stream smoke. Getting to work is necessary, smoking is not. Dangerous sports are usually for a natural high, it can have numerous benefits as well as the risks. There also has to be a point where we do say it's their own free choice to weigh the benefits against the danger.
[/quote]
If a person is an alcoholic, they should choose not to drink. 'Moderation' for an alcoholic is quite likely nothing at all. Everyone is different.

In terms of smoking, it is the choice of the individual whether or not to do so. Yes, it's not healthy. There are lots of unhealthy things in this world. Lots of them aren't (and shouldn't be) illegal. You chose to stop smoking because your risks and detriments outweighed your benefits. Who are you to tell someone else that they can't make that choice on their own?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295826684' post='2203590']
Who are you to tell someone else that they can't make that choice on their own?
[/quote]
[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/baddoggy.jpg?t=1295828472[/img]


I've never told anyone what to do. The original argument was that you wrote as though Marijuana was OK. I'm not telling them or you what to do, I'm advising on what I think and from my own experiences. And I think Marijuana and smoking is an unacceptable risk. They do the devils work.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295724521' post='2203097']
I agree with you on marijuana. I think it needs to be legalized. There's a case to be made about other drugs, I'm sure, but I don't want to get into that.
Obviously there is risk with any chemical that you take into your body. For instance, while I was on prednisone, if I had stopped cold turkey for longer than about a day, I would have ended up in the hospital due to a certain type of withdrawal. Pretty heavy stuff, which is why it can't be taken lightly.
[/quote]
[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295814895' post='2203508']
I also do not think that smoking is inherently evil, as you seem to depict it. Like many things, it can be done in moderation, and the risk/benefit analysis is up to the individual.
[/quote]

You've appeared to understate the risks.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295828545' post='2203601']


I've never told anyone what to do. The original argument was that you wrote as though Marijuana was OK. I'm not telling them or you what to do, I'm advising on what I think and from my own experiences. And I think Marijuana and smoking is an unacceptable risk. They do the devils work.




You've appeared to understate the risks.
[/quote]
I haven't discussed the risks at all. What I've said is that doing such a cost-benefit analysis is up to the individual.
You have decided that for you smoking is not an acceptable risk, and that's fine. Leave everyone else to make that decision for themselves.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295830592' post='2203614']
I haven't discussed the risks at all. What I've said is that doing such a cost-benefit analysis is up to the individual.
You have decided that for you smoking is not an acceptable risk, and that's fine. Leave everyone else to make that decision for themselves.
[/quote]
Sometimes I feel so depressed
[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/depressed.jpg?t=1295833242[/img]

I think someone is in a grumpy mood from another thread. This is a phorum where we discuss things! You are playing down the risks and thus I believe misleading people who respect your view. And I'm giving my view which I'm entitled to do until such time as the phorum owners say I can't. My view is that smoking and marijuana is an unacceptable risk. People are free to believe you or I as they will.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295833318' post='2203627']
Sometimes I feel so depressed
[img]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss282/mho_owen/depressed.jpg?t=1295833242[/img]

I think someone is in a grumpy mood from another thread. This is a phorum where we discuss things! You are playing down the risks and thus I believe misleading people who respect your view. And I'm giving my view which I'm entitled to do until such time as the phorum owners say I can't. My view is that smoking and marijuana is an unacceptable risk. People are free to believe you or I as they will.
[/quote]
I'm not playing down any risks, because thus far I've declined to discuss risks in any particular depth. I simply don't think it's relevant to my point, which is that it's not for you to decide what risks somebody else is allowed to take. For you it is an unacceptable risk, and that's perfectly fine. In fact I agree. What I will not do though, is tell somebody else that for them it is also an unacceptable risk. Adults can make that decision for themselves, and parents can make that decision for their minor children.
For me, backcountry hiking is also an unacceptable risk, because I'm not prepared in terms of safety equipment or hiking experience. On the other hand, intermediate to somewhat advanced trail hiking is fine for me (not for everybody), because I consider the risks associated with higher intermediate hiking to be outweighed by the benefits.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295814895' post='2203508']

I also do not think that smoking is inherently evil, as you seem to depict it. Like many things, it can be done in moderation, and the risk/benefit analysis is up to the individual.
[/quote]
This expressly says that smoking in moderation is OK. It's not! People die even from side stream smoke! That's your view and I am not saying you are not entitled to make it. I'm saying one cigarette can cause a person to have a stroke because it often raises the blood pressure to unnatural levels.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295826684' post='2203590']
Who are you to tell someone else that they can't make that choice on their own?
[/quote]
You are inferring that I cannot tell someone that smoking at any level is dangerous. I can put forward any view I like within forum guidelines, no-one is compelling anyone to take notice, least of all me. I am not threatening or attempting to scare people, I believe what I say. My experiences are not unique, they can apply to anyone. In Oz, smoking in the presence of children is now illegal.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295833513' post='2203628']
it's not for you to decide what risks somebody else is allowed to take.
[/quote]
I haven't made any decisions or forced anyone, I have merely stated a view point in conflict to yours. This incidentally is the reverse case to the one about making jokes related to the occult.