Courting And Marrying Outside The Church

[tinytherese]

So lately I've been wondering if I should be open to discerning marriage with a guy who isn't Catholic (when the time is right. I'm not rushing off to find a date at the moment.)

The Catholics I've known who have done it have either

1. [i]Raised the kids in Both Faiths[/i] I met a young women who had one Catholic parent and the other was Presbyterian. They would alternate which church they went to each week. She received her First Communion with others her own age and that next week continued with the alternating. Eventually when it came time for Confirmation she chose to be confirmed a Catholic and only attend mass. Another one of my friends had a similar upbringing only the other parent was Methodist. Her parents conbined the faiths and now she picks and chooses what she likes from other religions as her faith.

2. [i]Didn't Bring Up the Kids with Any Faith and Let them Decide When They were Older/i] A friend of mine had a Catholic mom and Baptist dad who later divorced and she decided to be non-denominational. Another friend once expressed how she wished that she was brought up with some kind of faith and admired my roommate and the time and I for being sure in what we believe.

3. [i]The spouse who wasn't Catholic converted so that there would be unity in the family and not because they actually believed in Catholicism. [/i]

4. [i]One of the spouse converts or reverts to Catholicism while they other is still in the their former faith tradition and sometimes they even convert as well. [/i]

So I haven't had an example of a marriage where the wedding was Catholic and the other spouse understood that the children would be raised Catholic.

For anyone who is dating, engaged to, or married to someone outside the Church what is it like? Do they ever come to mass with you? Do the kids ask questions like, "If mommy/daddy is outside the Church (or even not Christian) will they go to heaven?" How do you handle practices that the other doesn't do according to their beliefs like fasting and not eating meat during Lent? Do you have the same meal or separate ones when you're together? Does the other say try to convert the children if you have any or make comments that get the kids wondering if they should leave the faith like, "There is no truth. As long as you believe in something dear, that's all that matters," or morality issues like abortion and living a homosexual lifestyle?

If you are discerning marriage with someone outside the faith, what factors do you see as essential for a spouse? What about when you have something going on in your marriage that you significantly disagree with such as contraception and sterilization, or one of the kids has a child out of wedlock and they think that they should abort?

How do you share such an intimate life with someone who just doesn't have your beliefs, which are such a large part of who you are? I may not be appealing to a Protestant or non-Christian anyway since I'm studying to become a catechist and my Catholic school is a tiny university in the Bible-belt where there's plenty of anti-Catholicism in this small southern town.

[HisChildForever]

Those are all very valid concerns. There are plenty of members here who can answer your questions, I just wanted to throw in a question of my own: never mind marriage to a non-Catholic, how do you [i]date[/i] a non-Catholic and "make it work"? I have never dated a solid Catholic, I have only ever dated atheists and agnostics (you like someone, you want to make it work you know), and it is just exhausting, particularly in matters of chastity. I have found that not only do I have to work on my self-control and guard my purity, but I have to take on [i]his[/i] as well since it is not something he is conscious of or cares much about. I actually find dating to be a hindrance now because the issue of faith and purity is going to come up one way or another, and it is just one of those eye-rolling "here we go again" scenarios LOL.

[Brother Adam]

2 Cor 6:14-16: Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

APOSTOLIC LETTER
OF POPE PAUL VI
ON
MIXED MARRIAGES

[quote]
The Church is indeed aware that mixed marriages, precisely because they admit differences of religion and are a consequence of the division among Christians, do not, except in some cases, help in re-establishing unity among Christians. There are many difficulties inherent in a mixed marriage, since a certain division is introduced into the living cell of the Church, as the Christian family is rightly called. And in the family itself the fulfillment of the Gospel teachings is more difficult because of diversities in matters of religion, especially with regard to those matters which concern Christian worship and the education of the children.

For these reasons the Church, conscious of her duty, discourages the contracting of mixed marriages, for she is the most desirous that Catholics be able in matrimony to attain to perfect union of mind and full communion of life. However, since man has the natural right to marry and beget children, the Chruch, by her laws, which clearly show her pastoral concern, makes such arrangements that on the one hand the principles of divine law be scrupulously observed and that on the other the said right to contract marriages be respected.

The Church vigilantly concerns herself with the education of the young and their fitness to undertake their duties with a sense of responsibility and to perform their obligations as members of the Church, and she shows this both in preparing for marriage those who intend to contract a mixed marriage and in caring for those who have already contracted such a marriage.

Although in the case of baptized persons of different religious confessions, there is less risk of religious indifferentism, it can be more easily avoided if both husband and wife have a sound knowledge of the Christian nature of marital partnership, and if they are properly helped by their respective Church authorities. Even difficulties arising in marriage between a Catholic and an unbaptized person can be overcome through pastoral watchfulness and skill.

Neither in doctrine nor in law does the Church place on the same level a marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic, and one between a Catholic and an unbaptized person for, as the Second Vatican Council declared, men who, though they are not Catholics, "believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are brought into a certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." [Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, 3, AAS (1965), P. 93. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, AAS 57 (1965), pp. 19-20.]

Moreover, although Eastern Christians who have been baptized outside the Catholic Church are separated from communion with us, they possess true sacraments, above all the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are joined to us in a very close relationship. [Cf Second Vatican Council: Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, 13-18, 1.c., pp. 100-104.] Undoubtedly there exists in a marriage between baptized persons, since such a marriage is a true sacrament, a certain communion of spiritual benefits which is lacking in a marriage entered into by a baptized person and one who is not baptized.

Nevertheless, one cannot ignore the difficulties inherent even in mixed marriages between baptized persons. There is often a difference of opinion on the sacramental nature of matrimony, on the special significance of marriage celebrated within the Church, on the interpretation of certain moral principles pertaining to marriage and the family, on the extent to which obedience is due the Catholic Church, and on the competence that belongs to ecclesiastical authority. From this it is clear that difficult questions of this kind can only be resolved when Christian unity is restore.

The faithful must therefore be taught that, although the Church somewhat relaxes ecclesiastical discipline in particular cases, she can never remove the obligation of the Catholic party, which, by divine law, namely by the plan of salvation instituted through Christ, is imposed according to the various situations.

The faithful should therefore be reminded that the Catholic party to a marriage has the duty of preserving his or her own faith. Nor is it ever permitted to expose oneself to a proximate danger of losing it.

Furthermore, the Catholic partner in a mixed marriage is obliged, not only to remain steadfast in the faith, but also, as far as possible, to see to it that the children be baptized and brought up in that same faith and receive all those aids to eternal salvation which the Catholic Church provides for her sons and daughters.

The problem of the children's education is a particularly difficult one, in view of the fact that both husband and wife are bound by that responsibility and may by no means ignore it or any of the obligations connected with it. However the Church endeavors to meet this problem, just as she does the others, by her legislation and pastoral care.

With all this in mind, no one will be really surprised to find that even the canonical discipline on mixed marriages cannot be uniform and that it must be adapted to the various cases in what pertains to the juridical form of contracting marriages, its liturgical celebration, and, finally, the pastoral care to be given to the married people, and the children of the marriage, according to the distinct circumstances of the married couple and the differing degrees of their ecclesiastical communion.

It was altogether fitting that so important a question should receive the attention of the Second Vatican Council. This occurred several times as occasion arose. Indeed, in the third session the Council Fathers voted to entrust the question to us in its entirety.

To meet their desire, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on March 18, 1966, promulgated an instruction on mixed marriages, entitled Matrimonii Sacramentum, [Cf AAS 58 (1966), pp. 235-239.] which provided that, if the norms laid down therein stood the test of experience, they should be introduced in a definite and precise form into the Code of Canon Law which is not being revised. [Cf. ibidem 1.c., p. 237.]

When certain questions on mixed marriages were raised in the first general meeting of the Synod of Bishops, held on October, 1967, [CF. Argumenta de quibus disceptabitur in primo generali coetu Synodi Episcoporum, pars altera, Typis Polyglottis Vaticanis, 1967, pp. 27-37.] and many useful observations had been made upon them by the Fathers, we decided to submit those questions to examination by a special commission of cardinals which, after diligent consideration, presented us with its conclusions.

At the outset we state that Eastern Catholics contracting marriage with baptized non-Catholics or with unbaptized persons are not subject to the norms established by this letter. With regard to the marriage of Catholics of whatsoever rite with Eastern, non- Catholic Christians, the Church has recently issued certain norms, [Cf. Second Vatican Council: Decree on Eastern Catholic Churches, Orientalium, Ecclesiarum, 18, AAS 57 (1965), p. 82, Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches: Decree Crescens Matrimoniorum, AAS 59 (1967), pp. 165-166.] which we wish to remain in force.

Accordingly, in order that ecclesiastical discipline on mixed marriages be more perfectly formulated and that, without violating divine law, canon law should have regard for the different circumstances of married couples, in accordance with the mind of the Second Vatican Council expressed especially in the decree Unitatis Redintegratio [AAS 57 (1965), pp. 90-112.] and in the declaration Dignitatis Humanae, [AAS 58 (1966), pp. 929-946.] and also in the Synod of Bishops, we, by our own authority, and after mature deliberation, establish and decree the followings norms:

1. A marriage between two baptized persons, of whom one is a Catholic, while the other is a non-Catholic, may not licitly be contracted without the previous dispensation of the local Ordinary, since such a marriage is by its nature an obstacle to the full spiritual communion of the married parties.

2. A marriage between two persons of whom one has been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, while the other is unbaptized, entered into without previous dispensation by the local Ordinary, is invalid.

3. The Church, taking into account the nature and circumstances of times, places and persons, is prepared to dispense from both impediments, provided there is a just cause.

4. To obtain from the local Ordinary dispensation from an impediment, the Catholic party shall declare that he is ready to remove dangers of falling from the faith. He is also gravely bound to make a sincere promise to do all in his power to have all the children baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church.

5. At an opportune time the non-Catholic party must be informed of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that he is cognizant of the promise and obligation on the part of the Catholic.

6. Both parties are to be clearly instructed on the ends and essential properties of marriage, not to be excluded by either party.

7. Within its own territorial competence, it is for the bishops' conference to determine the way in which these declarations and promises, which are always required, shall be made: whether by word of mouth alone, in writing, or before witnesses, and also to determine what proof of them there should be in the external forum, and how they are to be brought to the knowledge of the non-Catholic party, as well as to lay down whatever other requirements may be opportune.

8. The canonical form is to be used for contracting mixed marriages, and is required for validity, without prejudice, however, to the provisions of the decree Crescens Matrimoniorum, published by the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches on February 22, 1967. [(9) Cf. AAS 59 (1967), p. 166.]

9. If serious difficulties stand in the way of observing the canonical form, local Ordinaries have the right to dispense from the canonical form in any mixed marriage. But the bishops' conference is to determine norms according to which the said dispensation may be granted licitly and uniformly within the region or territory of the conference, with the provision that there should always be some public form of ceremony.

10. Arrangements must be made that all validly contracted marriages be diligently entered in the books prescribed by canon law. Priests responsible should make sure that non-Catholic ministers also assist in recording in their books the fact of a marriage with a Catholic.

Episcopal conferences are to issue regulations determining, for their region or territory, a uniform method by which a marriage that has been publicly contracted after a dispensation from the canonical form was obtained, is registered in the books prescribed by canon law.

11. With regard to the liturgical form of the celebration of a mixed marriage, if it is to be taken from the Roman ritual, use must be made of the ceremonies in the rite of celebration of marriage promulgated by Our authority, whether it is a question of a marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic (39-54) or of a marriage between a Catholic and an unbaptized person (55- 66). If, however, the circumstances justify it, a marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic can be celebrated, subject to the local Ordinary's consent, according to the rites for the celebration of marriage within Mass (19-38), while respecting the prescription of general law with regard to eucharistic communion.

12. The episcopal conferences shall inform the Apostolic See of all decisions which, within their competence, they make concerning mixed marriages.

13. The celebration of marriage before a Catholic priest or deacon and a non-Catholic minister, performing their respective rites together, is forbidden. Nor is it permitted to have another religious marriage ceremony before or after the Catholic ceremony, for the purpose of giving or renewing matrimonial consent.

14. Local Ordinaries and parish priests shall see to it that the Catholic husband or wife and the children born of a mixed marriage do not lack spiritual assistance in fulfilling their duties of conscience. They shall encourage the Catholic husband or wife to keep ever in mind the divine gift of the Catholic faith and to bear witness to it in gentleness and reverence, and with a clear conscience. [CF. 1 Peter 3:16.] They are to aid the married couple to foster the unity of their conjugal and family life, a unity which, in the case of Christians, is based on their Baptism too. To these ends it is to be desired that those pastors should establish relationships of sincere openness and enlightened confidence with ministers of other religious communities.

15. The penalties decreed by canon 2319 (see below) of the Code of Canon Law are all abrogated. For those who have already incurred them the effects of those penalties cease, without prejudice to the obligations mentioned in number 4 of these norms.

Canon 2319, § 1:

"Catholics are under an excommunication latae sententiae reserved to the Ordinary:

(1) who contract marriage before a non-Catholic minister contrary to canon 1063, § 1, 1:

(2) who contract marriage with an explicit or implicit agreement that all children or any child be educated outside the Catholic Church;

(3) who knowingly presume to present their children to non-Catholic ministers to be baptized;

(4) who, being parents or taking their place, knowingly present their children to be educated or trained in a non-Catholic religion.

16. The local Ordinary is able to give a "sanatio in radice" of a mixed marriage, when the conditions spoken of in number 4 and 5 of these norms have been fulfilled, and provided that the conditions of the law are observed.

17. In case of a particular difficulty or doubt with regard to the application of these norms, recourse is to be made to the Holy See.

We order that what we have decreed in this letter, given in the form of "motu proprio," be regarded as established and ratified, notwithstanding any measure to the contrary, and is to take effect from the first day of October of this year (1970).[/quote]

[sixpence]

I am very interested to hear what people have to say!

Thus far, I have dated a non-conservative Jew, an agnostic?, and now a fallen away Catholic / "non-denominational". We are waiting until we can sort out our faith differences, and come to an agreement about children before we get more serious because it is very important to both of us. I have had the same problem as HCF in terms of purity with all three of them, they respected my wishes for my sake, but not for their own, which is troubling...

[Nihil Obstat]

At my parish there is a family in which the father is Irish Catholic and the mother is Hindu. As far as I can tell, the kids are entirely Catholic, and the wife usually attends Mass with them. They're a lovely family.

[Sarah147]

I think you'd wind up hurting yourself. Husband and wife need to guide eachother in the faith and to Heaven.

As Catholics, you could go to Adoration together, Mass, prayer together, talk about Jesus, etc.

What heartbreak to have a spouse apart from Jesus.

To whatever degree, there wouldn't be agreement on movie content, NFP, admitting sins and being forgiving and loving and selfless. There is so much.

It would hurt the children, too, as they are influenced by the witness.

Edited January 20, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1295542156' post='2202225']
For anyone who is dating, engaged to, or married to someone outside the Church what is it like? Do they ever come to mass with you? Do the kids ask questions like, "If mommy/daddy is outside the Church (or even not Christian) will they go to heaven?" How do you handle practices that the other doesn't do according to their beliefs like fasting and not eating meat during Lent? Do you have the same meal or separate ones when you're together? Does the other say try to convert the children if you have any or make comments that get the kids wondering if they should leave the faith like, "There is no truth. As long as you believe in something dear, that's all that matters," or morality issues like abortion and living a homosexual lifestyle?

[/quote]
Well, as someone who is married to a non-Catholic, I will answer some of the questions for you.

My wife, Shea, comes to Mass. She does not go to any other religious 'functions/services' that could be seen as attempting to fulfill a Sunday obligation. She is extremely gracious and respectful in this way. Our 2 daughters were baptized within the Church and receive a Catholic upbringing. Most questions concerning religion come to me. Of course, with my wife as a stay at home Mom, there are inevitably questions that may pop up when I am not there. Of course, having a 2 and 8 year old, the questions are straightforward enough that a non-denominational Christan, like Shea, feels comfortable answering. I am not afraid of her answering as she knows what Catholics believe; and even though she does not understand, or agree, she will answer as faithfully as she can. As part of communication as a married couple, we talk about questions when I get home. Sometimes, she says, wait till Dad gets home; which has worked when used. Shea helps Peyton with her homework, including religion homework as refers to our child's religious text for answers to religious homework. Shea is incredibly gracious and for this I am thankful. There has not been a situation where Mommy gave the 'wrong' answer. I trust her.

Regarding 'heavier' issues like abortion and homosexuality, she knows the Churches stance and will articulate accordingly, or will defer to me.

She is a part of MOPS, which is a mom's group. Her MOPS meets at an Episcopalian (sp) church. They have had a music/worship service during the week. We have gone to 2. Mainly because Shea loves music..lol, but the pastor was there and the Gospel was proclaimed with a little sermon. Neither times has the message been crazy or anti catholic. She is surprised, knowing my history, that I would go and not burn up in the pew...lol..she's a funny gal.

During Lent, if she is cooking or making lunches that day, she does not make meat; nor will she eat meat on those days out of respect for us. She does not fast, but is cognizant (sp) of it and makes attempts to have a bite like when Daddy/Addie/and Peyton are having Tea Time.... (if you know what I mean)

Shea agreed, when we spoke to Fr., to raise the children Catholic. And she has been nothing but true to her word...so conversion (as in trying to convert the children) is a non issue.

On the challenging side, Shea does in fact believe in a more 'universal' economy of salvation than I am comfortable with. These are the rough points...the challenges. I could quote scripture, canons, encyclicals, or whatever..but JUST telling/showing/proving to someone they are wrong is really not the way to convert hearts and souls....especially if you are a grade-a jerk about it.... And unfortunately, I've learned that the hard way. I now find my self simply asking what she thinks about 'xyz', listening, and then exchanging the idea from my point of view. It sounds simple, but sometimes it is not. I have to force myself, at times, to realize where she is coming from; if I am to communicate what i need and want to and have it actually received lovingly. I believe the Holy Spirit will work, if I get out of the way...This too is not easy, case in point contraception. We all know the Church's stance on it, some of use can quote from HV in our sleep..but to a non-catholic, HV is worthless. Especially when many women in your own parish contracept and give conflicting scenarios when the pill is ok..or that 'i talked to Fr., and he said it was ok for me'. In my experiences, you have to go back to what life is, who is its author...(much like HV) lol... Because catholicism is a compendium of 2000+ years of stuff (pardon the theological term), alot of what we believe is built upon other things we already believe. It is not just a church (or ecclisiatical community) that sprouted in the 1990's who's theology is, shall we say, less than deep. Have we and do we get in fights about religion? Yes. Most of these are my fault, I have to admit. Sometimes, i wish she could plug into my brain and just 'get it'. Sometimes, I think I talk too much and my need to prove a point trumps my need to love my wife.

But these challenges can lead to more positive results. We recently, last Sunday, were talking about a teacher of Peyton's who's son was in a motorcycle accident and will most likely be in a vegetative state for the rest of his life. Undoubtedly, we were sad; and Shea cried. She could not understand it. These people (the family, the son, everyone) are wonderful people. How could something so bad happen to people that good? We had a long and really wonderful talk about how God brings good out of suffering; giving the example (ala Fr. Corapi) that Diecide (the worst possible wrong) brought about salvation of the human race. She then admitted, in tears, that she thought God punished her (with our 2 miscarriages) because she was not Catholic...and a really great talk ensued. Hopefully, I did not mess up the work God wanted to do at that time. lol.

In retrospect, my parents were both catholic, married in the baptist church...my dad could not get an annulment from his first marriage as his ex-wife abused him and was mentally unstable (though the Pope was kind enough to personally annul the marriage of Frank Sinatra's daughter on my parent's wedding day). We went to Mass together, they raised me catholic together.... and got a divorce when I was 16. so yeah.

Hope that helps...

- MIKolbe

[CatherineM]

My mom wasn't Catholic. She was so supportive of our Catholic education, and such an important part of the parish community, that most people didn't know she wasn't Catholic. They just thought she didn't receive communion because they had both been divorced. Back then, most people didn't go for annulments, they just didn't take communion. So I know it can work with the right person. I tried dating a non-Catholic once, but that turned out badly. My dad always told me not to date anyone I wouldn't or couldn't marry. Sometimes you fall in love with someone you can't foresee, but I wouldn't suggest actively seeking out non-Catholics to date unless you have no other options. Marriage is hard enough without starting from a place that is difficult.

[missionseeker]

My mother married a non-Catholic. At first she wasn't as strong in her faith and we did the alternating churches thing. My dad went to his mother's church though, not because he necessarily agreed with it, but because.. where else would he go? When my older sister took first communion, Mum realized that there had to be some grounding in faith. You can't take a kid to one church that claims this to be Body of Christ and to another that won't let chilren have symbolic crackers and grape juice because they are too young to understand. So then we went to the Catholic church every week. Dad always went with us, but didn't convert for 15 more years.

I know that it had always been a little hard on my mum. Especially since we were in the south and Dad's family was kind of suspicious and resentful of my yankee, Catholic mother. After kid #3 they were constantly told "you should really get that fixed" and for a while I think there was serious disagreement between them about whether or not to do so. They didn't (thank God) and I now have four more lovely siblings.

Personally, I've dated both a Catholic and a fallen away/not really/I guess I'll go to Mass on Easter but I don't really believe a lot of what the Church teaches kind of "Catholic" (I think he converted because he worked at my Catholic school. I think he sees the beauty and wants it, but has never been formed really well in the faith). They both had their negatives. It was nice to be able to go to Mass with the Catholic, but there were other things that didn't mesh well and other issues.

After the Catholic I guess I figured that I might be better off not making that a hard and fast requirement for a guy I date. I felt like I clicked better with the non-Catholic. But then we disagreed on all of the important things. He was willing to hold off on the physical for my sake, but I guess only for a time, because we broke up after I told him that it wasn't a not ready or don't want to, but won't kind of deal.

It was hard either way. I'm thinking that I guess I shoul re-re-modify my stance on Catholicity. I suppose that I am willing to date either way, but only if he understands that being Catholic is part of me and I can't really separate the two and all of the stuff that that entails. Which is a lot for someone who disagrees with it fundamentally to deal with. SO I figure that should weed out some a little anyway. I don't know.

My sister also married a nonCatholic who goes to Mass with her every Sunday. Their kid (due in eight weeks!) will be raised Catholic and any future littles as well. So it can work I guess, but it ain't easy.

[Sternhauser]

.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

As you pointed out, the deepest part of who you are should be your Catholic Faith. Why would you want to marry someone who can't understand and appreciate the deepest part of who you are?

Additionally, there is no option in the Catholic Church: your children must be raised Catholic. Period. The line "I'll let my children decide if they want to be Catholic when they're older" is infuriating. I'd love to tell them, "Really? So you'll let your child decide if he wants to brush his teeth when he's older, too, because it's such a big decision?" Or "You'll let your child decide if he wants to wear a seatbelt when he's 18?" Irrational thought. There isn't much that is more disturbing.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 20, 2011 by Sternhauser

[liseski]

My manfriend's ex-wife was not Catholic. They were not married in the church, but all three boys were raised Catholic, were alter-servers, and their mom went to mass and actually worked in the Sunday School/daycare. She never became Catholic.
She also left him for another man after 28 years of marriage, but that is another story.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295558842' post='2202326']
As you pointed out, the deepest part of who you are should be your Catholic Faith. Why would you want to marry someone who can't understand and appreciate the deepest part of who you are?
~Sternhauser
[/quote]
I am confused.

Are you saying only a Catholic mate can accomplish this, or that it is easier for a Catholic mate to accomplish this? Or something other than that?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1295559268' post='2202331']
I am confused.

Are you saying only a Catholic mate can accomplish this, or that it is easier for a Catholic mate to accomplish this? Or something other than that?
[/quote]

I am willing to go out on a limb and say that a non-Catholic cannot fully appreciate the Catholicity of his or her mate without living it himself or herself.

~Sternhauser

[MIKolbe]

eh..ok..

as a man, i can't fully appreciate the pangs of birth...but i still know it hurts like heck, and i would do anything i could to assist, and it doesn't hinder my ability to have the utmost respect for moms.

your theory is harmless.

proceed.