truthfinder Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Hi everyone, I should have realised that taking a women's history course was a bad idea... I've been able to defeat my profs arguments against the Church (in my mind at least) or at least understand where he goes wrong in his interpretations except for one. My prof stated that Tertullian wrote that since women came from man's rib they were not in the image of God, only the image of man, and were consequently inferior. First, I don't know enough about Tertullian. Is this sentence true, and if so, was it one of his heretical beliefs? Thanks so much, this has been bothering me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1295421399' post='2201731'] Hi everyone, I should have realised that taking a women's history course was a bad idea... I've been able to defeat my profs arguments against the Church (in my mind at least) or at least understand where he goes wrong in his interpretations except for one. My prof stated that Tertullian wrote that since women came from man's rib they were not in the image of God, only the image of man, and were consequently inferior. First, I don't know enough about Tertullian. Is this sentence true, and if so, was it one of his heretical beliefs? Thanks so much, this has been bothering me. [/quote] I read Tertullian's stuff last year, but I can't remember now. That might have been the case. Would you like me to see if I can find it again later tonight? It would be quite late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295455913' post='2201829'] I read Tertullian's stuff last year, but I can't remember now. That might have been the case. Would you like me to see if I can find it again later tonight? It would be quite late. [/quote] I would be so extremely appreciative if you could find anthing. It's conflicting with the belief that men and women are the image of God, something can't be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'll let you know what I find as soon as I have a chance to look. For what it's worth, I didn't even like Tertullian's stuff before he was a Montanist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1295421399' post='2201731'] Hi everyone, I should have realised that taking a women's history course was a bad idea... I've been able to defeat my profs arguments against the Church (in my mind at least) or at least understand where he goes wrong in his interpretations except for one. My prof stated that Tertullian wrote that since women came from man's rib they were not in the image of God, only the image of man, and were consequently inferior. First, I don't know enough about Tertullian. Is this sentence true, and if so, was it one of his heretical beliefs? Thanks so much, this has been bothering me. [/quote] Woman came from the side of man - she is not above or below, but next to. Man and woman are equal partners with different (yet complimentary) responsibilities. I have seen these garbage inferiority arguments before and none have any basis. For example, woman was created after man and thus she must be (or is) inferior to man. Alice von Hildebrand, however, has pointed out that the creation account in Genesis is not descending but ascending - humans, superior to animals, were created after animals, and therefore woman, created after man, would be ranked "higher" on the ascending ladder of creation. Of course, von Hildebrand was quick to note that this does [i]not[/i] mean woman is superior to man, but that the superiority/inferiority argument (in which woman is said to be inferior) can easily be flipped on its head. Now, on to [url="http://www.tertullian.org/articles/turcan_etre_femme_eng.htm"]Tertullian[/url]: [quote] However the dogma here, [u]it is that the woman is the equal of the man in the eyes of God; and Tertullian gets busy to prove it[/u], for example in De anima, XXXVI. He stresses there that the soul does not have a pre-established sex. There are not female hearts which would be lower than male hearts. Heart and flesh "are sown" at the same time in the uterus at the time of the conception. Moreover, the flesh of Adam was animated by a soul, so the soul of Adam was used as well as his body in making the woman. [/quote] Your professor is uninformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 So is the part about women being in the image of man and not God completely made-up? You've been helpful, thank you. I hope to learn more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='truthfinder' timestamp='1295484227' post='2201995'] So is the part about women being in the image of man and not God completely made-up? You've been helpful, thank you. I hope to learn more. [/quote] "And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1295460773' post='2201852'] Woman came from the side of man - she is not above or below, but next to. Man and woman are equal partners with different (yet complimentary) responsibilities. I have seen these garbage inferiority arguments before and none have any basis. For example, woman was created after man and thus she must be (or is) inferior to man. Alice von Hildebrand, however, has pointed out that the creation account in Genesis is not descending but ascending - humans, superior to animals, were created after animals, and therefore woman, created after man, would be ranked "higher" on the ascending ladder of creation. Of course, von Hildebrand was quick to note that this does [i]not[/i] mean woman is superior to man, but that the superiority/inferiority argument (in which woman is said to be inferior) can easily be flipped on its head. Now, on to [url="http://www.tertullian.org/articles/turcan_etre_femme_eng.htm"]Tertullian[/url]: Your professor is uninformed. [/quote] I've got to get a copy of those books. Excellent point, Bishop Sheen would describe it similarly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1295493568' post='2202042'] "And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them." - Genesis 1:27 [/quote] Yes I understand that part, I was referring to Tertullian ever making a similar statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I'm sorry, I'm not feeling up to finding those passages tonight. I have tomorrow off and will try to find it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295500053' post='2202074'] I'm sorry, I'm not feeling up to finding those passages tonight. I have tomorrow off and will try to find it then. [/quote] No worries, I'm just so glad that you and HCF have been so willing to help. God bless you both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Even if Tertullian said it and believed it, on what basis does that make it an argument against the Church? We don't claim that each Church Father was perfect in their beliefs and Tertullian later in life was definitely not. Hippolatus, Cyprian, Sheperd Hermas Augustine, etc. all had their issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) The often cited basis of the claim that Tertullian believed only male human beings were made in the image of God is the following. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0403.htm"]On the Veiling of Virgins[/url], Chapter 10 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm"]On the Apparel of Women[/url], Book 1, Chapter 1 Tertullian expressed theological opinions on many things that I'd disagree with (including theological anthropology, sexuality, marriage) but in this case I'd say that his view is ambiguous. In spite of the little proof quotes one could glean for their purposes I think what Tertullian even meant by "image of God" is debatable (the "likeness of God" being something distinct). The understanding of divinity, grace, matter, the body, the human being, and various other things is not entirely perspicuous when it comes to the writings of Tertullian. How to interpret him on this point may not be as simple as taking an isolated translated sentence at face value. The treatise [i]De Cultu Feminarum[/i] (On the Apparel of Women) is the most common basis of the claim that Tertullian was misogynistic, the first chapter being the zinger (see the link above). What is my opinion? There is evidence that Tertullian was a misogynist, and that he believed women to be ontologically inferior to men, but there is also evidence to the contrary, and doing justice to such questions requires more than a cursory glance at a couple cherry picked quotes. Confirmation bias and the fallacy of selective attention are the bane of scholarly method. If this were a pattern for a professor I might wonder if they were engaging in ideological activism at my expense. P.S. NM. Edited January 21, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1295637432' post='2202581'] The often cited basis of the claim that Tertullian believed only male human beings were made in the image of God is the following. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0403.htm"]On the Veiling of Virgins[/url], Chapter 10 [url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm"]On the Apparel of Women[/url], Book 1, Chapter 1 [/quote] Thank you very much for these links, I have not yet had the time to read them fully, but I will be soon. Thank you everyone for your help on this matter, it is greatly appreciated. I love you all. Prayers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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