ThePenciledOne Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 At first I wanted to put this in open mic, but I think it'll end up to be an argument or debate or whatever, so I thought I would post my thought here... I understand here on this board of Phatmass, we are a Catholic majority group that would love to see the world converted and all souls saved. Of course I am generalizing here for the simplicity and clarity, but I think as Catholics, this is what we hope for. (I hope) Anyway, another thing is that we wish for all Catholics (at least Roman Catholics) to follow Rome and follow all the doctrines and rituals that go into the Liturgy and theTradition of the Church and everything else that goes into the Faith. Yet, the thing that I have to keep telling myself is that as much as we strive for this we cannot and yet sometimes from what I have seen on the board, we allow ourselves to become so caught up in our 'goal' that we forget reality. The reality that this is a [i]fallen[/i] world, that this world does have sin within it and as much as we cannot achieve perfection or anything near it without Grace, where are we? I am just tired of reading posts that are so caught up in how Roman Catholics 'should' do things this way and that way etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to follow the Catholic Church in the most Orthodox fashion possible. (And I use Orthodox in the sense of authentic Catholicism), but we do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal and we must not necessarily compromise our stance, but level with it and go beyond merely what [i]we[/i] think should happen. Anyway, sorry for the short rant, but I am just putting this out there. Slight frustration for a young Catholic, that has to deal with other young Catholics that have a hard time dealing with those that think of the Faith in such an idealistic way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1295331096' post='2201331'] Bingo! [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7duP4d9ZziY&feature=related[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Idealism is easier when you are young. Reality is one of those things that gets battered into you as you go through life. That doesn't mean you have to compromise. As an example, I used to tell my boys that they shouldn't just do enough to get by. They should at least strive for excellence. If you try your best and don't get there, that's okay, but you should at least try. Lots of the other parents seemed to think that as long as their kids graduated without being on drugs, it was fine. I can't tell you how many times I heard a parent lament something that their child failed at or got caught doing, and their last statement was, "at least they aren't on drugs." I think that works for all of us. We seem to be okay with letting most people stumble through life without being exposed to the truth so long as society limps along. I truthfully believe that if the people on the street really knew what our Church harbored behind its doors, that we'd have to add ten times as many masses and our seminaries would be overflowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 AMEN. It's a good thing to think idealistically for the Church, but when one forces his or her views onto other people, the purpose is shot. Coming to fully know, understand, and appreciate the Church and all it's beauty requires baby steps. To force on another person one's personal ideals of how things "should" be can be confusing and unrealistic. The chief purpose as Christians is to bring others closer to Christ (and the Church He established). This can be done gently, while still adhering to Rome, without shunning people away from the Church. I think a lot of extremely idealistic Catholics need to understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1295327680' post='2201294'] At first I wanted to put this in open mic, but I think it'll end up to be an argument or debate or whatever, so I thought I would post my thought here... I understand here on this board of Phatmass, we are a Catholic majority group that would love to see the world converted and all souls saved. Of course I am generalizing here for the simplicity and clarity, but I think as Catholics, this is what we hope for. (I hope) Anyway, another thing is that we wish for all Catholics (at least Roman Catholics) to follow Rome and follow all the doctrines and rituals that go into the Liturgy and theTradition of the Church and everything else that goes into the Faith. Yet, the thing that I have to keep telling myself is that as much as we strive for this we cannot and yet sometimes from what I have seen on the board, we allow ourselves to become so caught up in our 'goal' that we forget reality. The reality that this is a [i]fallen[/i] world, that this world does have sin within it and as much as we cannot achieve perfection or anything near it without Grace, where are we? I am just tired of reading posts that are so caught up in how Roman Catholics 'should' do things this way and that way etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to follow the Catholic Church in the most Orthodox fashion possible. (And I use Orthodox in the sense of authentic Catholicism), but we do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal and we must not necessarily compromise our stance, but level with it and go beyond merely what [i]we[/i] think should happen. Anyway, sorry for the short rant, but I am just putting this out there. Slight frustration for a young Catholic, that has to deal with other young Catholics that have a hard time dealing with those that think of the Faith in such an idealistic way. [/quote] Our "goal" as you put it isn't overreaching. Our "goal" is reality. Yes, we are part of a fallen world, but we are called to be IN THE WORLD, NOT OF THE WORLD. While there is sin and all men will sin, that doesn't mean that we don't strive for holiness and that we don't strive to overcome sin. That is why frequent reception of the Sacraments, especially Penance and Holy Communion are important. Which brings me to an important point. Since we are called to those Sacraments more than any others, we have a right to the Sacraments properly celebrated. This isn't a "goal," this is a command from Rome. When we are deprived of that, we are commanded to stand up and say something..... (As an aside, when speaking of orthodoxy as a Catholic principle, you should not capitalize. Capitalizatioin infers the schismatics). Finally, you say that we "do not live in a world that cannon achive that sort of ideal." I completely disagree. If we are IN THE WORLD and not OF THE WORLD, then it can be achieved. The Church has set out a clear path....the problem is that men won't follow it. They would rather chase the apple (as in the Wizard of Oz) and what happens then? The wicked witch, then (devil) can attack. If man stays on the path, then while the attacks come, they are easier to fend off. Holding to a standard is never a bad thing, because if one holds to the standard long enough, it becomes an ideal....as long as the standard is from the authentic magisterium it is not flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1295327680' post='2201294'] but we do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal and we must not necessarily compromise our stance, but level with it and go beyond merely what [i]we[/i] think should happen. [/quote] this part of you OP has me thinking alot of things...so thanks, it's been a while since some of those neurons have fired. lol I would counter by proposing that Heaven is also an ideal, yes? Yet we still 'shoot' for it. I do not believe the we "do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal". I just don't. I believe with God, it is possible. we live in a world that DOESN'T WANT tp achieve that sort of ideal. I believe there is a difference. That said, I do certainly agree that we must "level" this zealousness and go 'beyond" it to a real love. With this, I can agree. I think sometimes, and not just here on Phatmass (the greatest Catholic Phorum in the world [sup][size="1"]TM[/size][/sup]), but in our churches, we sometimes put love of liturgy (whether a purist or an inventor) ABOVE love neighbor. And that, is wrong. That will do nothing but create cliques and clubs whose sole purpose is the be a human toothache, while driving honest and good people away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1295327680' post='2201294'] At first I wanted to put this in open mic, but I think it'll end up to be an argument or debate or whatever, so I thought I would post my thought here... I understand here on this board of Phatmass, we are a Catholic majority group that would love to see the world converted and all souls saved. Of course I am generalizing here for the simplicity and clarity, but I think as Catholics, this is what we hope for. (I hope) Anyway, another thing is that we wish for all Catholics (at least Roman Catholics) to follow Rome and follow all the doctrines and rituals that go into the Liturgy and theTradition of the Church and everything else that goes into the Faith. Yet, the thing that I have to keep telling myself is that as much as we strive for this we cannot and yet sometimes from what I have seen on the board, we allow ourselves to become so caught up in our 'goal' that we forget reality. The reality that this is a [i]fallen[/i] world, that this world does have sin within it and as much as we cannot achieve perfection or anything near it without Grace, where are we? I am just tired of reading posts that are so caught up in how Roman Catholics 'should' do things this way and that way etc etc. Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to follow the Catholic Church in the most Orthodox fashion possible. (And I use Orthodox in the sense of authentic Catholicism), but we do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal and we must not necessarily compromise our stance, but level with it and go beyond merely what [i]we[/i] think should happen. Anyway, sorry for the short rant, but I am just putting this out there. Slight frustration for a young Catholic, that has to deal with other young Catholics that have a hard time dealing with those that think of the Faith in such an idealistic way. [/quote] Not really clear exactly what the complaint is here. There's nothing wrong with discussing how things ought to be, and trying to convince others how things ought to be, so long as charity is exercised. This is a debate table, after all. And most of us are old enough to know that things will usually not be the way they ought. But that's no reason to stop trying to convince others to believe or do as they ought. That's part of our duty as Catholics. Take something as basic as the Ten Commandments. People break all of them all the time, always have, and always will until the Second Coming. Should we stop trying to convince people from following them because they are unduly "idealistic"? [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1295366650' post='2201429'] AMEN. It's a good thing to think idealistically for the Church, but when one forces his or her views onto other people, the purpose is shot. Coming to fully know, understand, and appreciate the Church and all it's beauty requires baby steps. To force on another person one's personal ideals of how things "should" be can be confusing and unrealistic. The chief purpose as Christians is to bring others closer to Christ (and the Church He established). This can be done gently, while still adhering to Rome, without shunning people away from the Church. I think a lot of extremely idealistic Catholics need to understand that. [/quote] This is an internet message board. Nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to do anything. There are effective and ineffective ways of preaching the truth of Christ and His Church, but we should never compromise the message, and we must remember that some will always turn away anyways, just as they turned away from Christ Himself during His earthly ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1295372082' post='2201458'] This is an internet message board. Nobody's holding a gun to anybody's head and forcing them to do anything. There are effective and ineffective ways of preaching the truth of Christ and His Church, but we should never compromise the message, and we must remember that some will always turn away anyways, just as they turned away from Christ Himself during His earthly ministry. [/quote] I wasn't only talking about this message board, but about people everywhere else too. Spoken figuratively. I know we should never compromise the message, that's why I said there are still ways we can "adhere to Rome" while being realistic in bringing others to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1295381806' post='2201504'] I wasn't only talking about this message board, but about people everywhere else too. Spoken figuratively. I know we should never compromise the message, that's why I said there are still ways we can "adhere to Rome" while being realistic in bringing others to the Church. [/quote] The gist I got was that Penciled was saying that as Catholics, while should not compromise what we believe, we can still "Be all things to all men." Jesus reached out to people where they were, and it sounded as though Penciled was saying there are a lot of Catholics who wouldn't have anything to do with anyone who was a serious sinner, because, well, they're sinners. Good Catholics don't hang around [i]them. [/i] There were some pretty outlandish saints who did some pretty crazy things to win over souls, even though their methods sometimes got them mocked and persecuted by the modern Pharisees. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 that is much more lucid...even if it is coming from you. I can certainly agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 I haven't had time yet to really read all the longer responses and respond yet, so sorry guys, but sorry for my OP being so dogmatic haha. I guess, I was thinking/typing out loud haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1295363420' post='2201399'] Idealism is easier when you are young. Reality is one of those things that gets battered into you as you go through life. That doesn't mean you have to compromise. As an example, I used to tell my boys that they shouldn't just do enough to get by. They should at least strive for excellence. If you try your best and don't get there, that's okay, but you should at least try. Lots of the other parents seemed to think that as long as their kids graduated without being on drugs, it was fine. I can't tell you how many times I heard a parent lament something that their child failed at or got caught doing, and their last statement was, "at least they aren't on drugs." I think that works for all of us. We seem to be okay with letting most people stumble through life without being exposed to the truth so long as society limps along. I truthfully believe that if the people on the street really knew what our Church harbored behind its doors, that we'd have to add ten times as many masses and our seminaries would be overflowing. [/quote] I have found myself to be very idealistic over the past year and I have tried to shed some of that, since it just doesn't work when being an evangelist along with other conclusions. As far as your last statement goes, I agree to a point, but the reality is that because of humanity's flaw the Church has been stained to some degree to culture, so most will let the stereotype of the Catholic be what they believe. And that is something we must break down first, but of course that means we all must be living authentically outside of the pew, and in the world as well. And most non-believers do not understand doctrine, dogma or theology, what they do understand is themselves and that is what we have to approach. [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295367900' post='2201434'] Finally, you say that we "do not live in a world that cannon achive that sort of ideal." I completely disagree. If we are IN THE WORLD and not OF THE WORLD, then it can be achieved. The Church has set out a clear path....the problem is that men won't follow it. They would rather chase the apple (as in the Wizard of Oz) and what happens then? The wicked witch, then (devil) can attack. If man stays on the path, then while the attacks come, they are easier to fend off. Holding to a standard is never a bad thing, because if one holds to the standard long enough, it becomes an ideal....as long as the standard is from the authentic magisterium it is not flawed. [/quote] I agree holding to a standard is not a bad thing. The world will not achieve it, because then why would Christ come again? The mission of the Church is to evangilize and that requires a realistic view of non-believers. How did the missionaries approach other peoples that had never heard of Christ? They incorporated Christ into their lives, which is what we must do. Thinking that non-believers will adhere to every little thing at first is foolish, it's about growth in their faith and spiritual life as well. (And this includes Catholics as well.) Of course I am not saying that when non-believers convert, it's ok for them not to follow the motions, if they are to be truely converted it will be a heart or mind conversion. (Hopefully both.) I have found that our 'goal' overshadows the reality of our situation in the world, that's all. [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1295368273' post='2201438'] this part of you OP has me thinking alot of things...so thanks, it's been a while since some of those neurons have fired. lol [/quote] Thanks! [quote] I would counter by proposing that Heaven is also an ideal, yes? Yet we still 'shoot' for it. I do not believe the we "do live in a world that cannot achieve that sort of ideal". I just don't. I believe with God, it is possible. we live in a world that DOESN'T WANT tp achieve that sort of ideal. I believe there is a difference. That said, I do certainly agree that we must "level" this zealousness and go 'beyond" it to a real love. With this, I can agree. I think sometimes, and not just here on Phatmass (the greatest Catholic Phorum in the world [sup][size="1"]TM[/size][/sup]), but in our churches, we sometimes put love of liturgy (whether a purist or an inventor) ABOVE love neighbor. And that, is wrong. That will do nothing but create cliques and clubs whose sole purpose is the be a human toothache, while driving honest and good people away. [/quote] Well, I would say that Heaven is a place in which the wedding feast will take place, not exactly and ideal. I agree with your statement on how this world does not want to achieve this ideal of Catholicism and believing. I mean, in reality it's no surprise. I will personally admit that being Catholic is [b]hard[/b]. I mean really really [b]hard[/b]. I can relate to a quote from Sheldon Vanauken from [i]Severe Mercy[/i]: [quote] [center]…though I wouldn’t have admitted it, even to myself, I didn’t want God aboard. He was too heavy. I wanted Him approving from a considerable distance. I didn’t want to be thinking of Him. I wanted to be free—like Gypsy. I wanted life itself, the color and fire and loveliness of life. And Christ now and then, like a loved poem I could read when I wanted to. I didn’t want us to be swallowed up in God. I wanted holidays from the school of Christ.[/quote] [left]So, this is the reality of the situation here. We all struggle in faith and believing, and yes we strive but that is all it is. Striving. And your last sentence I entirely agree with. : ) [/left][/center] [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295384778' post='2201520'] The gist I got was that Penciled was saying that as Catholics, while should not compromise what we believe, we can still "Be all things to all men." Jesus reached out to people where they were, and it sounded as though Penciled was saying there are a lot of Catholics who wouldn't have anything to do with anyone who was a serious sinner, because, well, they're sinners. Good Catholics don't hang around [i]them. [/i] There were some pretty outlandish saints who did some pretty crazy things to win over souls, even though their methods sometimes got them mocked and persecuted by the modern Pharisees. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Exactly Stern. Thanks for breaking my OP down....I sometimes have trouble typing a thought that I haven't thought about nearly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now