HisChildForever Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1295387850' post='2201543'] ok ok... i'll try not to be flippant. i think i meant something more like: It is the intent of the user to actually contact something supernatural that puts them in harms way...not a piece of cardboard [/quote] If the "piece of cardboard" is the cause of the intent, or if it encourages the intent, then yes, it is very harmful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1295387850' post='2201543'] ok ok... i'll try not to be flippant. i think i meant something more like: It is the intent of the user to actually contact something supernatural that puts them in harms way...not a piece of cardboard [/quote] The intent is not all that matters. Do you think anybody intends to go through the enormous suffering that is possession by a demon? Action without the intent is more than sufficient to expose oneself to Satan. What if you attended a Black Mass (yes, they exist), intending it as a joke? You are still directly exposing yourself to spiritual attack. What if you invited a tarot reader to do a reading in your home to see if you can contact your beloved grandmother? The intent is (apparently) not evil, yet by doing so you may well be bringing nothing less than a demonic entity into your home, exposing your family and friends and yourself to its influence. This is not to be dismissed. We cannot afford to play with Satan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Nihil is right. If you offer an inch, there's no limit to the nasties that you can (and often will) open yourself up to. True, the board itself is worthless...but if anyone's ever used it, then your nephew messing around with it puts him in just as much danger. For me, all I had to do was ask for something to find me. That was the beginning of a lot of trouble I'm glad I'm done with now. Hmm. Approaching him with a "Satan will get you!" mindset will probably earn little more than an eyeroll. Maybe you should ask him about the weird/creepy things he's seen and heard about. Most Christians can agree that there are definitely entities we shouldn't trust out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1295365518' post='2201420'] [quote name='Hinter dem Horizont' timestamp='1295364890' post='2201411'] [font="Arial"][size="3"][color="#333333"]It's all caused by ideomotor effect which is the subconscious mind causing your muscles to move the pointer. If one blindfolds themselves and plays it with someone onlooking to record the answers, it will almost alway be totally unintelligible. [/color][/size][/font] [/quote] It's the 'almost' that's the problem, [b]Hinter[/b]. Obviously, not everyone who plays with a Ouija board gets caught up with evil spirits. But...it can and does happen, and for that reason, it should be avoided. [/quote] well, "almost" covers for situations of "1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters ..." type stuff. if anything intelligible comes up, it will be of pure chance, unless actively guided by the user. i dunno about the reaction against silly things meant to ask questions about the future, etc. I just had a funny image in my head of a little girl playing "he loves me, he loves me not" with a dandelion, and Nihil tackling her down the hill, then stomping the dandelion into a pulp and burning it. it made me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1295399254' post='2201605'] well, "almost" covers for situations of "1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters ..." type stuff. if anything intelligible comes up, it will be of pure chance, unless actively guided by the user. i dunno about the reaction against silly things meant to ask questions about the future, etc. I just had a funny image in my head of a little girl playing "he loves me, he loves me not" with a dandelion, and Nihil tackling her down the hill, then stomping the dandelion into a pulp and burning it. it made me laugh [/quote] Can you believe that doing that is illegal in Canada?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern california guy Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1295399254' post='2201605'] well, "almost" covers for situations of "1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters ..." type stuff. if anything intelligible comes up, it will be of pure chance, unless actively guided by the user. i dunno about the reaction against silly things meant to ask questions about the future, etc. I just had a funny image in my head of a little girl playing "he loves me, he loves me not" with a dandelion, and Nihil tackling her down the hill, then stomping the dandelion into a pulp and burning it. it made me laugh [/quote] So I probably can't get the lottery numbers from it... But it would be a worthwhile way to test it's accuracy!! Of course I can see how it could be misused. "Should I have another beer?" *yes* ! "Should I have more mint chip ice cream?" *yes* ! "Should I go to work tomorrow?" *no* I think that it could become a problem if you started to actually trust the answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295399354' post='2201607'] Can you believe that doing that is illegal in Canada?? [/quote] I can show you how to harness the occult powers of a buttercup flower to divine an individual's taste for butter. It can only be done by the light of the full sun. It is a practice of the ancients. ~Sternhauser Edited January 19, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1295400574' post='2201619'] I can show you how to harness the occult powers of a buttercup flower to divine an individual's taste for butter. It can only be done by the light of the full sun. It is a practice of the ancients. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Your wisdom is unparalleled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1295387850' post='2201543'] It is the intent of the user to actually contact something supernatural that puts them in harms way...not a piece of cardboard [/quote] Yes, I would be inclined to agree with that! [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295372151' post='2201460'] . Fr. Gabriele Amorth for instance, mentions that he exorcised a person who had been targeted because he/she had accidentally brought into their home an item that had been used for Black Masses. [/quote] Hmmm, I'm definitely not an authoritiii on the subject, but that does seem a little superstitious. Are you saying that if soemone doesn't like me they could put a curse on me or hide an object in my house which could cause me problems? I don't think I could go for that without some serious Church backup. Can you produce some? I often fight with negative and bad thoughts like I have a demon or satan is trying to thwart what I am doing but when I took an evil thought to confession the priest just said that emotions or basic drives are not a sin if we do not give in to them. And these things exist only in our minds. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295375621' post='2201484'] The boards manufactured by Parker Bros. are probably no consecrated to Satan or anything, [/quote] What's satan got against Parker Bros? Did some of his toys break? [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295399354' post='2201607'] Can you believe that doing that is illegal in Canada?? [/quote] You can do what you like to the dandelion but leave the girl alone Nihil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295429954' post='2201744'] Hmmm, I'm definitely not an authoritiii on the subject, but that does seem a little superstitious. Are you saying that if soemone doesn't like me they could put a curse on me or hide an object in my house which could cause me problems? I don't think I could go for that without some serious Church backup. Can you produce some? I often fight with negative and bad thoughts like I have a demon or satan is trying to thwart what I am doing but when I took an evil thought to confession the priest just said that emotions or basic drives are not a sin if we do not give in to them. And these things exist only in our minds. [/quote] Superstitious to believe that demons can make use of objects that have been associated with them in the past? There aren't, as far as I know, Church documents that say "some objects can be come cursed", but no such documents are necessary. There are two levels on which the devil operates- the ordinary and the extraordinary. On the ordinary, basic level, we have temptation that we are all familiar with. Satan is permitted to tempt all of us, to a greater or lesser degree. On the extraordinary level, we have such things as demonic oppression and possession. As Catholics we cannot doubt that these things are real. We do have exorcists for a reason, after all. Too many Catholics simply do not believe that the devil is able to work in such ways. To believe that is a grave error, and frankly it is extremely dangerous. So yes, to answer your question, someone could curse you. Again, Fr. Gabriele Amorth, the chief exorcist of the Church in Rome talks in some detail about these. He refers to spells and curses as malefices. He says that in many cases the victim is not initially aware of the possibility, but over the course of the exorcism, he will usually find certain artifacts that have been associated with the malefice. They are usually hidden near the victim, or 'hidden' in plain site. Inside the pillow is common, so he will often open up a person's pillow, and if he finds for instance, a nail knotted with twine, he will throw that in a fire immediately. As I mentioned above, it is also common for the victim to vomit up strange objects (again, nails are mentioned). In this case it's symbolic more than a physical process, because most people would be severely injured by vomiting up a nail, but the objects somehow appear in the mouth or vomit of the person being exorcised. This is not superstition. This is simply the spiritual warfare that we face as fallen creatures afflicted by the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamomile Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 To build on what Nihil said, yes, objects can be connected with demonic power. Definitely For instance, in the New Age, things like crystals are associated with demonic powers, and the first thing one should do when converting from that is to get rid of everything that has any connection to that life. If you read the book [i]Ransomed from Darkness[/i], the author explains how hard it was for her to give up these items. This is why. It is not just psychological or emotional, though that can be part of it. I haven't read through this whole topic, but please everyone - don't go anywhere near stuff associated with the occult! Even if you think it is superstitious or weak-minded or a joke, etc. We are only human and don't come close to understanding the spiritual world of angels and demons, so if the Church says something can lead to contact with bad spirits, [b]listen[/b], and like a child, obey your Mother. We have the beauty of Our Lord to gaze on, whose Face contains pure love - He will give us all we need spiritually. There's no need to go looking for excitement or fulfillment in spiritual experiences that are contrary to what the Church wisely tells us is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I forgot to add something: it's much easier if you look at this from the other direction. Certain objects have what we can (in an extremely rough sense) call 'power' through their association with holy people or the Church. The Church blesses certain sacramentals such as holy water, chrism, exorcised oil, etc., and by the authority of the Church these blessed objects have certain benefits. A link to God, if you will. Furthermore, in the case of a said, we have first, second, and third class relics, which, through association with that saint, act as a sort of link again. It is the same with objects that are used as Satanic 'sacramentals' (such as items used in Black Masses,or items which are cursed), and items associated with Satanic persons. As an example, there was a man named Per Yngve Ohlin who was well known in the early Norwegian black metal scene. He killed himself with a shotgun, and some of his 'friends' made necklaces out of his bone fragments. Now obviously I don't know if he was truly a Satanist or not, but if he was, it would be smarter to run, not walk away from those necklaces if you encountered them. They would be very evil objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295454673' post='2201825'] there was a man named Per Yngve Ohlin who was well known in the early Norwegian black metal scene. He killed himself with a shotgun, and some of his 'friends' made necklaces out of his bone fragments. Now obviously I don't know if he was truly a Satanist or not, but if he was, it would be smarter to run, not walk away from those necklaces if you encountered them. They would be very evil objects. [/quote] Im surprised you've heard of that. Per was a very very troubled guy. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_(musician"]http://en.wikipedia..../Dead_(musician[/url]) his suicide note mostly just apologized for shooting the gun inside, and said "excuse all the blood" biography with some interesting info about him, though a bit of descriptive swearing. [url="http://www.freewebs.com/peryngveohlin/Pages/Biography.html"]http://www.freewebs.com/peryngveohlin/Pages/Biography.html[/url] If i remember correctly, one of the other members, "Euronymous" was the one who made the necklaces, and took a picture of the scene for their next album cover. all very messed up, though if you learn about Per Yngve, that is exactly the sort of thing he would be cool with. (not that it makes it ok) Black metal musicians(the early ones) are responsible for most of the bad image that metal bands get. there are a few other early BM bands that i dont listen to on principle for things like that. Edited January 19, 2011 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1295455408' post='2201827'] Im surprised you've heard of that. Per was a very very troubled guy. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_(musician"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_(musician[/url]) his suicide note mostly just apologized for shooting the gun inside, and said "excuse all the blood" If i remember correctly, one of the other members, "Euronymous" was the one who made the necklaces, and took a picture of the scene for their next album cover. all very messed up, though if you learn about Per Yngve, that is exactly the sort of thing he would be cool with. (not that it makes it ok) Black metal musicians(the early ones) are responsible for most of the bad image that metal bands get. there are a few other early BM bands that i dont listen to on principle for things like that. [/quote] Yea, I'd read about it in the past. I also heard about the album cover. Gross stuff. They were the same ones torching all those old Churches. I wonder what metal would be like today had it not been for the influence of these idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295455810' post='2201828'] Yea, I'd read about it in the past. I also heard about the album cover. Gross stuff. They were the same ones torching all those old Churches. I wonder what metal would be like today had it not been for the influence of these idiots. [/quote] yeah, mayhem was the band with Dead(per yngve) and euronymous. afaik, they werent involved in any church burnings, that was all Varg Vikernes from Burzum, and one or two other guys. Not too many people all told, but yeah. weird stuff. I dunno how it would be different. I'd like to think modern Black metal music(not so messed up) wouldnt have suffered, but the image is pretty incorporated into black metal. much like punk has its roots in british anachists, and punk written by rich white boys just isnt the same. inauspicious beginnings for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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