Ouija

[YMNolan]

I'm probably going to just rehash what everyone else has been saying but I have to say my part.

I have used a Ouija board before as a teenager. I've never seen anything weird happen - it's always been someone moving it, whether they owned up to it or not. That being said... Ouija boards are still extremely dangerous. Not the board itself, for it's simply a piece of card board, but the concept of contacting the dead or seeking information about one's future. That is what is a danger. And the board provides a medium for that. By meddling in those types of activities, you open the door, so to speak, for evil.

I also have to disagree, it is not just about the intent. Whether you are seriously trying to contact the dead or playing just "for a laugh" you are still opening yourself up to real danger. In fact, I bet it starts as just a casual curiosity for most people. And the Devil can and will prey on this.

Thankfully, God never allowed me to get caught up in this and never allowed any harm done. However there are plenty of stories of instances where others were not so fortunate.

My advice... do what ever it takes to keep your friend from dabbling. And burn that Ouija board.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295326214' post='2201269']
The Ouija board is a disgusting and evil object. Even using it once is gravely dangerous in a variety of ways. If you still have it, please burn it now and bury the ashes. Maybe mix the ashes with holy water first.
[/quote]

Like a false God, I don't think the board has any power and should not be treated as if it does. The evil comes by way of the persons attempt to play with forces that should be left alone. I do agree that it would be preferable to destroy it, but only because of what it represents and the propensity for misuse.

If the persons concerned are not religious then they could be warned that there is psychological danger and that avenue could be explored. In most things there is the physical aspect as well as the spiritual, the two usually go hand in hand. Just as mental illness can leave a person vulnerable to do satans work. The use of the object can first of all cause psychological damage and this is the only entry point for evil spirits or stupid(satan) to gain access.

[DrewATX]

[quote name='YMNolan' timestamp='1295366279' post='2201425']
I also have to disagree, it is not just about the intent. Whether you are seriously trying to contact the dead or playing just "for a laugh" you are still opening yourself up to real danger. In fact, I bet it starts as just a casual curiosity for most people. And the Devil can and will prey on this.
[/quote]

maybe it wasnt clear, but i agree with you completely. by intent, i mean, whats the use for the board? to contact something. theres intent there. and it its just a toy and means nothing, the user is still trying to contact something. and the more comfortable we are with it, the deadlier it becomes for satan to use against us.


[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295366601' post='2201427']
Like a false God, I don't think the board has any power and should not be treated as if it does. The evil comes by way of the persons attempt to play with forces that should be left alone. I do agree that it would be preferable to destroy it, but only because of what it represents and the propensity for misuse.

If the persons concerned are not religious then they could be warned that there is psychological danger and that avenue could be explored. In most things there is the physical aspect as well as the spiritual, the two usually go hand in hand. Just as mental illness can leave a person vulnerable to do satans work. The use of the object can first of all cause psychological damage and this is the only entry point for evil spirits or stupid(satan) to gain access.
[/quote]


an entry point. my thoughts exactly. its like inviting a serial killer into your house because you think hes harmless.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295366601' post='2201427']
Like a false God, I don't think the board has any power and should not be treated as if it does. The evil comes by way of the persons attempt to play with forces that should be left alone. I do agree that it would be preferable to destroy it, but only because of what it represents and the propensity for misuse.

If the persons concerned are not religious then they could be warned that there is psychological danger and that avenue could be explored. In most things there is the physical aspect as well as the spiritual, the two usually go hand in hand. Just as mental illness can leave a person vulnerable to do satans work. The use of the object can first of all cause psychological damage and this is the only entry point for evil spirits or stupid(satan) to gain access.
[/quote]
The board itself has no power, but objects can become tainted with the very real power of demons. Fr. Gabriele Amorth for instance, mentions that he exorcised a person who had been targeted because he/she had accidentally brought into their home an item that had been used for Black Masses. Again, no power in the object itself, but it had been so exposed to evil that it retained some of that nature.
In addition, it is possible for a witch (we're talking real witches here) to place a malefice (hex, curse, whatever you call it) on an object. This can be ostensibly to 'help' someone, similar to a good luck charm, or it can be specifically intended to cause harm. When Fr. Amorth performs an exorcism on someone who has beef afflicted in this way, he says that the person will often vomit up the cursed object, which is often such things as nails, hair, et. al..

[Catholictothecore]

I am very hesitate to post what I am about to. This is not because I am in any way disagreeing with what's been said above, but as someone who is still growing in faith, I ask questions that may seem like I'm playing "devil's advocate". I am not. I simply ask because I want to understand things I don't.

So, in faith of God and my friends, I ask.

1. Would the versions of this manufactured by Parker Brothers also be directly associated with the demonic?

2. Would the ritualistic destruction of this board actually be necessary? Forgive me, but acts like that recommended seem... medieval and superstitious to me. Case in point, a protestant friend of mine once pressured me into destroying a picture at the Newman Center that depicted a pre-fallen Lucifier. We did, though I had great discomfort over it. I felt like by destroying it we were giving the devil the power they were trying to deny him. Isn't fear of a symbol only giving more strength to the thing they symbol represents?

3. If the devil is that powerful, with that much influence over inanimate objects combined with human will, what else must be taken into account? Vampires? Hauntings? Actual "Necromancy"?

4. In short...are you saying "magic" really exists, has always existed, is purely evil, and is more than just a fantasy thing? In that case, shouldn't we burn have the video game industry, destroy Tolkien and CS Lewis works along with Harry Potter? It just...seems like so much for fear of a fairy tale that no one today really acknowledges as having any power, but rather, is idiots just chanting nonsense words and burning "incense" to get high.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' timestamp='1295374845' post='2201480']
I am very hesitate to post what I am about to. This is not because I am in any way disagreeing with what's been said above, but as someone who is still growing in faith, I ask questions that may seem like I'm playing "devil's advocate". I am not. I simply ask because I want to understand things I don't.

So, in faith of God and my friends, I ask.

1. Would the versions of this manufactured by Parker Brothers also be directly associated with the demonic?

2. Would the ritualistic destruction of this board actually be necessary? Forgive me, but acts like that recommended seem... medieval and superstitious to me. Case in point, a protestant friend of mine once pressured me into destroying a picture at the Newman Center that depicted a pre-fallen Lucifier. We did, though I had great discomfort over it. I felt like by destroying it we were giving the devil the power they were trying to deny him. Isn't fear of a symbol only giving more strength to the thing they symbol represents?

3. If the devil is that powerful, with that much influence over inanimate objects combined with human will, what else must be taken into account? Vampires? Hauntings? Actual "Necromancy"?

4. In short...are you saying "magic" really exists, has always existed, is purely evil, and is more than just a fantasy thing? In that case, shouldn't we burn have the video game industry, destroy Tolkien and CS Lewis works along with Harry Potter? It just...seems like so much for fear of a fairy tale that no one today really acknowledges as having any power, but rather, is idiots just chanting nonsense words and burning "incense" to get high.
[/quote]
I think I'll be able to answer well enough.

1) It's important to understand the difference between the object itself and what the object represents. The boards manufactured by Parker Bros. are probably no consecrated to Satan or anything, but on the other hand as an Ouija board it is objectively a dangerous object. I would say that it's impossible to make a harmless Ouija board, just because of the nature of the item and its intended use.
2) Yes and no. As you know, our Faith includes physical external acts which are also important. We also burn sacrementals when we can no longer use them. In the case of evil objects, we burn them and sprinkle them with holy water so that we can utterly destroy the object and 'break' its power. I wouldn't be comfortable merely tearing it up, because the object itself is still there. If we burn it, it's gone entirely, and holy water obviously is good for almost everything. There's also symbolism in fire which is apparently through the Church's use of it. In the case of demonic objects, if we were to burn it while praying, I think it's safe to speculate that it works in a sort of cleansing role.
3) Vampires I don't know, but hauntings absolutely, and necromancy... I don't even want to know. The devil has a lot of power over the earth. I believe in Scripture he's even referred to as something like "the god of this world". Obviously not god like God, I think they use it in a different sense, but he certainly has been given great power here. His power has already been defeated by Christ, but for now before the Second Coming, he is still permitted by God to attack us.
4) Yes, magic exists. There is no distinction between white magic and black magic. All magic is satanic. Most 'magicians' and 'witches' are frauds and charlatans (though even they can be used by Satan), but there are also real ones. There are also real (theistic) Satanists who perform real Black Masses. The literature aspect is different though. There is a line, and I think some caution should be used, but I'm not willing to condemn something like Harry Potter. Use caution, yes. When I have kids, will I have a good talk with them about what magic really is? Absolutely. It's not real-life magic in Harry Potter though. There is some bad stuff in the video game industry too. I don't know what we should do about it. Most, if not all of it is probably not satanic, per se, but can a few of those games open you up to it? Maybe. I don't know what to do about that right now. Remember though, that the second we deny that the devil has power is the second that he's won half his battle against us. If you think it's just fantasy, you're letting him walk in unnoticed.

I always have to recommend the books by Fr. Gabriele Amorth. His books right now are only ten dollars each. They're practically being given away, and there is enormous value in hearing that the chief exorcist of Rome has to say about exorcisms and witchcraft.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-Tells-His-Story/dp/0898707102/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295375535&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-Tells-His-Story/dp/0898707102/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295375535&sr=8-1[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-More-Stories-Gabriele-Amorth/dp/0898709172/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295375535&sr=8-2"]http://www.amazon.com/Exorcist-More-Stories-Gabriele-Amorth/dp/0898709172/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295375535&sr=8-2[/url]

Edited January 18, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh, I should emphasize something that I left out in my last post.
We should never fear Satan. While he has been given some power in this world, we know that he has already lost to Christ. He may have power over our bodies, but our souls belong to God alone. We must be wary, but never afraid. Fear does give him more power over us, so we have to recognize that while he is powerful and can do awful things to us, the only way he can win is if we let him. Satan hates priests, he hates the Church's prayers, and more than anything he hates the saints, the Virgin Mary, and the Trinity. They cause him unimaginable pain, and he fears them. A few of Fr. Amorth's stories mention just how afraid he is. During one exorcism he and the victim began praying a Hail Mary, and the demon speaking through the victim said that Mary was standing beside them, and she was causing it so much pain that it could hardly stand it. Just by her presence alone, and by our prayers to her.

[let_go_let_God]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' timestamp='1295374845' post='2201480']
1. Would the versions of this manufactured by Parker Brothers also be directly associated with the demonic?

2. Would the ritualistic destruction of this board actually be necessary? Forgive me, but acts like that recommended seem... medieval and superstitious to me. Case in point, a protestant friend of mine once pressured me into destroying a picture at the Newman Center that depicted a pre-fallen Lucifier. We did, though I had great discomfort over it. I felt like by destroying it we were giving the devil the power they were trying to deny him. Isn't fear of a symbol only giving more strength to the thing they symbol represents?

3. If the devil is that powerful, with that much influence over inanimate objects combined with human will, what else must be taken into account? Vampires? Hauntings? Actual "Necromancy"?

4. In short...are you saying "magic" really exists, has always existed, is purely evil, and is more than just a fantasy thing? In that case, shouldn't we burn have the video game industry, destroy Tolkien and CS Lewis works along with Harry Potter? It just...seems like so much for fear of a fairy tale that no one today really acknowledges as having any power, but rather, is idiots just chanting nonsense words and burning "incense" to get high.
[/quote]



1. Yes. Even though it is published and sold mainstream it is still something that can be associated with essentially opening a gate between a user and spirits.

2. We are also called to dispose of Holy Objects in the same way. It is by rendering it to a state that it is no longer what it once was. If you just throw away a Ouija board it can still be used. A threat still exists. However if burned it is no longer usable. To use an example within the Church, the Holy Eucharist is no longer present when it no longer recognizable by its substance. That is why we can properly dispose of the Holy Eucharist by dissolving it in water.

3. There is no saying what the devil can and cannot do. We know possession is real and have taken steps to combat it through the church, exorcists. As for creatures, they don't exist but as for spirits that are "stuck" we believe that all souls are judged at the time of death.

4. This is taken from the CCC


[quote]2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.[/quote]


While mystics and others have been given supernatural gifts they always admitted that A) they came from God, B) that they accepted them from God C) that they needed to be used or recorded through the special guidance of a spiritual director.

Magic takes something supernatural and turns it inwards treating the "powers" or themselves as false gods and away from the above stated points.

As for fiction if you are living in an area prone to beliefs in the supernatural you may not perceive it as fiction. There are areas in the Baltic states where pagan religions still run rampant and books such as Harry Potter are perceived to be true. This is where discernment of truth and fiction is necessary and that if you can discern which is which, CS Lewis, Tolkin and the video game industry are fine. However if those lines begin to blur, that's when problems arise.

Hope I've helped.

God bless-
LGLG

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='let_go_let_God' timestamp='1295376993' post='2201492']
1. Yes. Even though it is published and sold mainstream it is still something that can be associated with essentially opening a gate between a user and spirits.

2. We are also called to dispose of Holy Objects in the same way. It is by rendering it to a state that it is no longer what it once was. If you just throw away a Ouija board it can still be used. A threat still exists. However if burned it is no longer usable. To use an example within the Church, the Holy Eucharist is no longer present when it no longer recognizable by its substance. That is why we can properly dispose of the Holy Eucharist by dissolving it in water.

3. There is no saying what the devil can and cannot do. We know possession is real and have taken steps to combat it through the church, exorcists. As for creatures, they don't exist but as for spirits that are "stuck" we believe that all souls are judged at the time of death.

4. This is taken from the CCC





While mystics and others have been given supernatural gifts they always admitted that A) they came from God, B) that they accepted them from God C) that they needed to be used or recorded through the special guidance of a spiritual director.

Magic takes something supernatural and turns it inwards treating the "powers" or themselves as false gods and away from the above stated points.

As for fiction if you are living in an area prone to beliefs in the supernatural you may not perceive it as fiction. There are areas in the Baltic states where pagan religions still run rampant and books such as Harry Potter are perceived to be true. This is where discernment of truth and fiction is necessary and that if you can discern which is which, CS Lewis, Tolkin and the video game industry are fine. However if those lines begin to blur, that's when problems arise.

Hope I've helped.

God bless-
LGLG
[/quote]
I love that we said almost the same things. :D Makes me more sure of my own answers.

[sixpence]

lol ... I had one when I was little.... I found it very boring...

evil?? yah about as much as a fortune cookie, or a magic 8 ball, or one of those cootie-catcher things little girls use to ask questions.

as long as the boy is smart enough to know that its fake... that's fine... but the idea of spending more than 5 minutes on it seems like a red flag...

Suggestion: give him a book by Harry Houdini discussing how "mediums" and "seances" are 99.9999% frauds...

[MIKolbe]

iono..reading what others have posted, it may be unwise to be so flippant......

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1295382998' post='2201509']
lol ... I had one when I was little.... I found it very boring...

evil?? yah about as much as a fortune cookie, or a magic 8 ball, or one of those cootie-catcher things little girls use to ask questions.

as long as the boy is smart enough to know that its fake... that's fine... but the idea of spending more than 5 minutes on it seems like a red flag...

Suggestion: give him a book by Harry Houdini discussing how "mediums" and "seances" are 99.9999% frauds...
[/quote]
Attitudes like these are irresponsible and dangerous. Yea, seances may 99% of the time be fraudulent, however attending even a fraudulent one is still opening oneself up to demonic influence. God forbid, if you attended a true occult seance there would quite literally be a demonic presence in that room with you. When we dismiss Satan and his angels as silly and childish, we are giving him one more tool with while to work for the destruction of our souls, which is the one and only thing he desires.
Coming from a Catholic, your cavalier attitude worries me quite a bit.

[Nihil Obstat]

Might I remind you, Sixpence, of the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, given to us by Pope Leo XIII?

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
[b]who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
[/b]Amen.

[YMNolan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1295384696' post='2201518']
Might I remind you, Sixpence, of the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, given to us by Pope Leo XIII?

Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
[b]who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
[/b]Amen.
[/quote]

I pray this prayer at least once a day for that very reason. So that I never forget a) that the Devil is truly still out there seeking to wreak havoc on us all and b) that he is powerless against God and his holy angels.

[sixpence]

ok ok... i'll try not to be flippant.

i think i meant something more like:

It is the intent of the user to actually contact something supernatural that puts them in harms way...not a piece of cardboard