HisChildForever Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295225108' post='2200851'] KoC needs to take a step back and consider all of this, because I said it in another thread that Satan can deceive by being a spirit of strong religious beliefs as well as weak ones. He should consider his own heart, to make sure he isn't being deceived right now by the devil. [/quote] I find it odd that you would make this accusation - because in a previous discussion you took something I said the wrong way regarding the Devil and division (you were under the impression that I insulted your faith) and ranted at me for it. So it's okay for you to claim that others are deceived by the Devil but when [you think] someone makes this claim against you it's [i]not[/i] okay. Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295239745' post='2200916'] I'm not going to teach anybody about how to rightly divide the word of God, which is the mark of a believer, but you are applying those scriptures on me - and that simply shows how much you don't understand scripture because of your traditions. [/quote] Our "traditions" have been in existence for centuries longer than your Protestant translation of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1295239995' post='2200917'] I find it odd that you would make this accusation - because in a previous discussion you took something I said the wrong way regarding the Devil and division (you were under the impression that I insulted your faith) and ranted at me for it. So it's okay for you to claim that others are deceived by the Devil but when [you think] someone makes this claim against you it's [i]not[/i] okay. Weird. [/quote] You are still on that because I mocked you - and that is exactly where this is coming from. I couldn't care less about what you think of my faith, but you still want to hide behind the words of a forum than admit you were upset that I mocked you for such unwise words to say. Anyways, it's off topic. Though I believe anybody can be deceived, there are certain litmus tests one can apply to see if someone is being influenced by Satan. One of those is, does that person misuse the word of God to cause fear in people. KoC has said that my worship is vile before God, and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, for which I reject his ideas because that's not what Christ ever said. I brushed off one of his quotes of people who were church fathers (two of which happened after the Protestant reformation - I wonder if they had an axe to grind and any selfish motive to say what they said as they saw people leaving the catholic church because they didn't like what Popes and Bishops were doing) as - I'll take Religious people who disagreed with Jesus for 100 Alex! I have not come here to cause any fear, or any less faith in you - I want you all to trust the Christ the Apostles preached, the one that we read about when we read the scripture - and stop all this in fighting between all the people who trust Christ, because we are for him and each other - we are not against each other! [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1295240347' post='2200920'] Our "traditions" have been in existence for centuries longer than your Protestant translation of the Bible. [/quote] Though I said that to Cam, and not you, let me address this. If your tradition, such as there is no salvation for anybody who believes in Jesus outside the Catholic Church, disagrees with Jesus when he said, anybody who preaches in his name, and does miracles in his name is for him and everybody else who trusts in him, it is your duty to reject that tradition for what Jesus says. Fortunately, Vatican II accepts protestants who believe in Jesus also being brothers and sisters in Christ, correct. That is scriptural - as I can quote where it is said twice in Scripture - and I am glad that the leaders of the Catholic Church are having the hearts soften by God in this regard. If people take that lead from Vatican II, and stop being stiff necked, there will be a reconciliation between the different faiths of Christ, as we will recognize, it was that we trusted Jesus that makes us one and the same, lets forget the small details, as Jesus didn't really care about those small details! Edited January 17, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295240831' post='2200922'] Though I believe anybody can be deceived, there are certain litmus tests one can apply to see if someone is being influenced by Satan. One of those is, does that person misuse the word of God to cause fear in people. KoC has said that my worship is vile before God, and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, for which I reject his ideas because that's not what Christ ever said. I brushed off one of his quotes of people who were church fathers (two of which happened after the Protestant reformation - I wonder if they had an axe to grind and any selfish motive to say what they said as they saw people leaving the catholic church because they didn't like what Popes and Bishops were doing) as - I'll take Religious people who disagreed with Jesus for 100 Alex! [/quote] The Holy Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Church ([i]Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus[/i]). Of course the [i]Catechism[/i] explains that there are circumstances where a non-Catholic can be saved, such as ignorance of the Church (whether that be a non-Catholic Christian indoctrinated with false truths about the Church or an individual who never even heard of Christianity). You are free to reject the Church, it is a sad choice to make but because of free will you have the ability to make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295240831' post='2200922'] Though I said that to Cam, and not you, let me address this. If your tradition, such as there is no salvation for anybody who believes in Jesus outside the Catholic Church, disagrees with Jesus when he said, anybody who preaches in his name, and does miracles in his name is for him and everybody else who trusts in him, it is your duty to reject that tradition for what Jesus says. Fortunately, Vatican II accepts protestants who believe in Jesus also being brothers and sisters in Christ, correct. That is scriptural - as I can quote where it is said twice in Scripture - and I am glad that the leaders of the Catholic Church are having the hearts soften by God in this regard. [/quote] You need not quote "where it is said in Scripture" because everyone has already been subject to your incessant posting of the two Scriptural verses you are speaking of. It is my "duty" to accept that non-Catholic Christians have partial Truth, but it is also my "duty" to bring those non-Catholic Christians to the Holy Catholic Church so that they may experience the fullness of Truth.[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295240831' post='2200922'] I have not come here to cause any fear, or any less faith in you [/quote] Oh, no fear here bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295240831' post='2200922'] You are still on that because I mocked you - and that is exactly where this is coming from. I couldn't care less about what you think of my faith, but you still want to hide behind the words of a forum than admit you were upset that I mocked you for such unwise words to say. Anyways, it's off topic. Though I believe anybody can be deceived, there are certain litmus tests one can apply to see if someone is being influenced by Satan. One of those is, does that person misuse the word of God to cause fear in people. KoC has said that my worship is vile before God, and that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, for which I reject his ideas because that's not what Christ ever said. I brushed off one of his quotes of people who were church fathers (two of which happened after the Protestant reformation - I wonder if they had an axe to grind and any selfish motive to say what they said as they saw people leaving the catholic church because they didn't like what Popes and Bishops were doing) as - I'll take Religious people who disagreed with Jesus for 100 Alex! [/quote] I say your worship of God is improper, and that it can only be perfected within the bosom of Holy Mother Church. There can be different degrees in just how displeased God can be with false worship. But in the end only one is true. I also reject the Protestant rebellion, it was of division and of Satan's spirit. The worse of what happened in view of Sacred Scripture was the butchering of it, taking out Sacred Books, and purposely mistranslating passages. And basing that unholy act on a council of the Jews, that was held AFTER Our Blessed Lord ascended into Heaven, a council which also REJECTED the divinity of Christ. Anyway if someone has a improper understanding of God, and their worship is based on that improper understanding so to will their worship be improper. Surely you can agree if someone believes that God is our mother and worships Him as a mother that such worship would be improper and perhaps even vile. Or someone that denies the humanity of our Blessed Lord, someone who thinks He just came down from Heaven without being born of a virgin, and has the head of some beast instead of a man. Surely you can agree if someone believes that is God that they would worship God falsely, and God would find such worship vile. Edited January 17, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295239745' post='2200916'] I'm not going to teach anybody about how to rightly divide the word of God, which is the mark of a believer, but you are applying those scriptures on me - and that simply shows how much you don't understand scripture because of your traditions. if you want to say that you are shaking the dust off your feet because I don't accept your faith, and that means, in your logic, that it is better for Sodom and Gomorrha than for me, than you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Like I said before Cam, lets us agree to allow the Lord judge between your walk and my walk on the day of judgment - and see which one was lead by the spirit and which one wasn't. Jesus sings a much different tune than you, and I reject the Christ you are preaching because is it not the Christ that the apostles preached. [/quote] So, just so we're clear, you can't justify your interpretation? You can't tell me who's authority you're making your assertations from? Interesting. And since you reject the Christ I am preaching, how do you come to that interpretation? Clearly, it cannot be based upon Scripture, because Sacred Tradition, supported by Sacred Scripture justifies my interpretations. Not my own flawed understanding of an English translation of the Bible. Unless of course you're coming from the original Greek, in that case: [quote]εἰς ἣν δ' ἂν πόλιν ἢ κώμην εἰσέλθητε, ἐξετάσατε τίς ἐν αὐτῇ ἄξιός ἐστιν: κἀκεῖ μείνατε ἕως ἂν ἐξέλθητε εἰσερχόμενοι δὲ εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν ἀσπάσασθε αὐτήν καὶ ἐὰν μὲν ᾖ ἡ οἰκία ἀξία, ἐλθάτω ἡ εἰρήνη ὑμῶν ἐπ' αὐτήν: ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ᾖ ἀξία, ἡ εἰρήνη ὑμῶν πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐπιστραφήτω καὶ ὃς ἂν μὴ δέξηται ὑμᾶς μηδὲ ἀκούσῃ τοὺς λόγους ὑμῶν, ἐξερχόμενοι ἔξω τῆς οἰκίας ἢ τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης ἐκτινάξατε τὸν κονιορτὸν τῶν ποδῶν ὑμῶν[/quote] or if you'd rather have it in Latin: [quote]in quamcumque civitatem aut castellum intraveritis interrogate quis in ea dignus sit et ibi manete donec exeatis intrantes autem in domum salutate eam et siquidem fuerit domus digna veniat pax vestra super eam si autem non fuerit digna pax vestra ad vos revertat et quicumque non receperit vos neque audierit sermones vestros exeuntes foras de domo vel de civitate excutite pulverem de pedibus vestris [/quote] I know my Scripture. I spent way too much time in college not to know this stuff, so I'm pretty sure that whatever language you want to discuss this in I can. So far though, your English translation isn't doing so hot...because you can't even tell me how you're basing your interpretation. Btw, there in nothing that I have said that is at odds with Sacred Scripture. Not one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 While I agree with all the authority arguments, I'm still patiently waiting for someone to actually respond to his interpretation or use of the scripture. What does the authority actually say in regards to this scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1295241740' post='2200932'] I say your worship of God is improper, and that it can only be perfected within the bosom of Holy Mother Church. There can be different degrees in just how displeased God can be with false worship. But in the end only one is true.[/quote] And so let the Lord judge between my worship and your worship on the day of judgment. Peace brother. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1295241740' post='2200932'] I also reject the Protestant rebellion, it was of division and of Satan's spirit. The worse of what happened in view of Sacred Scripture was the butchering of it, taking out Sacred Books, and purposely mistranslating passages. And basing that unholy act on a council of the Jews, that was held AFTER Our Blessed Lord ascended into Heaven, a council which also REJECTED the divinity of Christ.[/quote] Yes, some did, but the Protestant reformation (not rebellions to be squashed - but honest people who didn't agree with some of the things the Catholic Church was doing and had done in the past) was based upon people saying, they no longer represent Christ, so I don't want to have anything to do with them. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1295241740' post='2200932'] Anyway if someone has a improper understanding of God, and their worship is based on that improper understanding so to will their worship be improper. Surely you can agree if someone believes that God is our mother and worships Him as a mother that such worship would be improper and perhaps even vile. Or someone that denies the humanity of our Blessed Lord, someone who thinks He just came down from Heaven without being born of a virgin, and has the head of some beast instead of a man. Surely you can agree if someone believes that is God that they would worship God falsely, and God would find such worship vile. [/quote] I love your logic and your ever present attempt to try to look at love logically. I don't think God cares how we serve him, just as long as we do so by respecting the truths of the Bible. [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295241999' post='2200935'] So, just so we're clear, you can't justify your interpretation? You can't tell me who's authority you're making your assertations from? Interesting. And since you reject the Christ I am preaching, how do you come to that interpretation? Clearly, it cannot be based upon Scripture, because Sacred Tradition, supported by Sacred Scripture justifies my interpretations. Not my own flawed understanding of an English translation of the Bible. Unless of course you're coming from the original Greek, in that case:[/quote] A wicked generation seeks signs and explanations. I am going to give you a choice on where my authority is coming from : You can choose to say that my authority comes from the holy spirit, and say, well mine comes from the holy spirit as well, so which one of us is right and which one of us is wrong. Or you can choose to say my authority comes only from myself, and then you can say, well mine comes from the holy spirit, so you are wrong because sacred tradition says you are wrong, and you can shake the dust off your shoes like you did. [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295241999' post='2200935'] or if you'd rather have it in Latin: I know my Scripture. I spent way too much time in college not to know this stuff, so I'm pretty sure that whatever language you want to discuss this in I can. So far though, your English translation isn't doing so hot...because you can't even tell me how you're basing your interpretation. Btw, there in nothing that I have said that is at odds with Sacred Scripture. Not one thing. [/quote] You are a very educated man, congratulations. [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1295241681' post='2200928'] Oh, no fear here bro. [/quote] There are some people who are afraid right now, but it is my purpose to help bolster the faith of people here on Jesus. But by your own words, your traditions reject what Jesus said, and I choose to reject your traditions because they don't agree with Jesus, and if I ever went back on what Jesus said and say - Lord I know how you say that all people who follow you are for you and for me, but you are wrong because my priest and pope tells me you are wrong, so I must tell those awful protestants for not accepting the church you made. If I had to live that lie, I would want God to strike me down for my wickedness. I will not be a backslider! [quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1295242361' post='2200937'] While I agree with all the authority arguments, I'm still patiently waiting for someone to actually respond to his interpretation or use of the scripture. What does the authority actually say in regards to this scripture? [/quote] Good man. I would also like to see them show me the scriptures saying that I am wrong about anybody who trusts in Christ are not for him or others who believe in Christ. They use old generic arguments simply because they don't want to accept Christ's truth - that it doesn't matter to him! I feel sorry for them, because they are doing this - and I'm not the wall, Christ is the wall that is the stumbling block for them. Edited January 17, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Here is Catholic Commentary on those scriptures... For Luke [quote]Ver. 49. We forbade him. St. John having the most love for his Lord, and being particularly beloved by him, thought all were to be excluded from these gifts, who were not obedient to his divine Master. (St. Augustine) --- But we must remember, that not the minister is the author of these miracles, but the grace which is in him, who performs these wonders by virtue of the power of Christ. (St. Cyril) --- How wonderful is the power of Christ, who by his grace works miracles in the persons of the unworthy, and those that are not disciples; as men are sanctified by the priest, though the priest should not be in the state of grace! (Theophylactus) Ver. 50. Forbid him not. Our Lord is not moved by this event, to teach us that perfect virtue entertains no thoughts of revenge, and that anger cannot be found where the fulness of charity reigns. The weak must not be driven away, but assisted. Let the breast of the religious man be ever unmoved by passion, and the mind of the generous undisturbed by desires of revenge. (St. Ambrose)[/quote] For Mark [quote]Ver. 37. Who followeth not us, in that special manner, as Christ's apostles did. (Witham)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295242930' post='2200941'] There are some people who are afraid right now, but it is my purpose to help bolster the faith of people here on Jesus. But by your own words, your traditions reject what Jesus said, and I choose to reject your traditions because they don't agree with Jesus, and if I ever went back on what Jesus said and say - Lord I know how you say that all people who follow you are for you and for me, but you are wrong because my priest and pope tells me you are wrong, so I must tell those awful protestants for not accepting the church you made. If I had to live that lie, I would want God to strike me down for my wickedness. I will not be a backslider! [/quote] Whether you become Catholic or not is a choice you alone can make. But please, read what we (Catholics) explain about the Church with an objective eye. It has already been explained to you - if not here then elsewhere on the forum, I am sure of it - that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church; it has already been explained to you that there is a concise and historical lineage of Popes from Peter to Benedict XVI. You do not have to believe us or believe in the Church, as stated that is your prerogative, but do not twist around what the Church teaches to fit your agenda of [i]Sola Scriptura[/i]. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295242930' post='2200941'] And so let the Lord judge between my worship and your worship on the day of judgment. Peace brother.[/quote] It is not judging. Christ through His Church teaches that in the Church alone is true worship found. You by your own words stand outside of that ark. I am not judging you I am giving you warning that only within the Church of Christ can you or any give true worship to God, so that you will come into this ark and be saved from the floods. [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295242930' post='2200941']Yes, some did, but the Protestant reformation (not rebellions to be squashed - but honest people who didn't agree with some of the things the Catholic Church was doing and had done in the past) was based upon people saying, they no longer represent Christ, so I don't want to have anything to do with them.[/quote] I didn't say they should be 'squashed' but only that they were rebellious, which they of course were. 'Honest' people cannot disagree with the Bride of Christ, Son of the Living God. [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295242930' post='2200941']I love your logic and your ever present attempt to try to look at love logically. I don't think God cares how we serve him, just as long as we do so by respecting the truths of the Bible.[/quote] God cares very much indeed how we serve Him, Christ is not a kitten, He is not a hippie dippie good time rock'n roller. He is the King of Heaven. Also I don't think there can be full and true respect the truths of the Bible if it is one that is gutted of whole books and mistranslated passages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295219880' post='2200822'] How do you know? Would you care to expound upon your personal knowledge of Christ's thoughts? [/quote] God speaks to us in a variety of ways, through Scripture, the Church, events and quite often [u]through people[/u]. He does not discriminate about who he uses to spread the word, he calls on all people to serve him! He only requires that they have faith and trust and sincerity. No need of a degree in theology or a high standing. If you ask for Jesus help with sincerity and faith in him then he even sometimes answers directly in various ways, but of course he only tells you what concerns you, he does not give information beyond your station. 'though you are you and I am I, yet we are one, one Christ!' [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1295243751' post='2200945'] Christ through His Church teaches that in the Church alone is true worship found. [/quote] What you write is a true statement but your interpretation is wrong. (We've been through this on another thread!) It does not mean that one has to attend a Catholic Church. The Church says that since Jesus founded the Church for the purpose of his continued ministry that when someone serves Jesus they must logically be serving the catholic (universal) church which is the body of Christ. To serve Jesus is not about knowing all the ins and outs of the rules like a Pharisee. It is actually living the two commandments and all the requirements that that discipline requires. People can be of another denomination or even another religion or they may even be searching, but if they are living by what their conscience dictates then they are living in Christ and if you live in Christ he will live in you. And if you do this then you are a member of the body of Christ which is the Universal Catholic Church. And you may not even be consciously aware of it! [quote][url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp"]Since God intends (plans, wills) that every human being should go to heaven, doesn’t the Church’s teaching greatly restrict the scope of God’s redemption? Does the Church mean—as Protestants and (I suspect) many Catholics believe—that only members of the Catholic Church can be saved? That is what a priest in Boston, Fr. Leonard Feeney, S.J., began teaching in the 1940s. His bishop and the Vatican tried to convince him that his interpretation of the Church’s teaching was wrong. He so persisted in his error that he was finally excommunicated, but by God’s mercy, he was reconciled to the Church before he died in 1978.[/url][/quote] Havn't time now but there's more on the Vatican website in support of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html"]Vatican website[/url] [quote]For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council's Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that "God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel" to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7). Certainly, the condition "inculpably ignorant" cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, "Grace works in an unseen way.... The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery"[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295220894' post='2200824'] Sure. [sup][/sup] And - And considering Considering Christ is the same yesterday, when he said to the apostles - that person who also calls out on my name to perform miracles, who teaches and loves me who isn't part of your group pleases me and is for me, then he also has the same attitude today - or scripture is wrong, and will always have that attitude. So Christ disagrees with his stand that you must be a Catholic to please God - you only have to believe in and trust Jesus Christ! [/quote] As I've mentioned before, I don't think this means to let another persist in error, or to keep from teaching another the full Truth. As we see in Acts, when Aquila & Priscilla take aside Apollos to teach him the full Truth, we do not treat those who don't have the full Truth as enemies, but neither do we let them persist without knowing the full Truth. Aquila & Priscilla didn't stop Apollos from preaching (as the Apostles were questioning stopping another from working miracles, only to have Jesus tell them not to stop him), but they take him aside and instruct him. Since Paul mentions Apollos then instructing and baptising others, we can see that he was in full communion with the Church after this point. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts