Worship

[Cam42]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295153788' post='2200676']
Do you understand the meaning of the word Worship?

According to the [url="http://www.xenos.org/essays/worship.htm"]greek[/url] it means to serve God. I do. You guys talk intellectually about standing before the gates of hell, but I have. I have stood before spiritual darkness with firmness of spirit, trusting God to be faithful to protect me from the very devices of the enemy, and God has always showed himself faithful.

What have you done, other than follow a spirit that is not of Christ - that totally disagrees with Christ, because Christ is no stumbling block for me. I can't wait for him to come back and take his final victory over all the enemy and what they are doing on this Earth!

If I see no division between us, and you do - who is Satan really messing with, because some people may say, he can do so through religious freedom, teach people to have a fluffy bunny relationship with Christ is all they have to do, It is also true in my experience that Satan can also masquerade as a spirit of strong religious beliefs too, to cause division.
[/quote]

Worship. That is an interesting concept...Christian worship is by definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God. So, I disagree a little with you on what the defintion is. It isn't simply service. It is more than that. It is homage paid to Him and the beings and objects which have a special relation to Him.

There are several degrees of this worship:

[list]

[*]if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
[/list][list]

[*]When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
[/list][list]

[*]As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
[/list]

Interior worship is to be distinguished from exterior worship. the former is not manifested by external acts, but consists in internal adoration; but when this inner sentiment is expressed by words or actions, prostration, genuflexion, the sign of the cross, or any other gesture, it becomes exterior worship. Again worship is private or public; the former, which may be an act of external worship, is performed unseen by men or seen by only a few; the second is official worship rendered by men assembled for a religious end and forming a religious society properly so called. This is not the place to show that Christian worship is a worship at once interior and exterior, public and private. It should be interior, otherwise it would be mere comedy, a purely pharisaical worship such as Christ condemned when He told His disciples that they should worship in spirit and the truth. But it should not be purely interior worship, as Sabatier, with certain Protestants and most Deists, maintains (Sabatier, Esquisse d'une philosophie de la religion, 1908, 5); for man is not a pure spirit but composed of body and soul, and he should adore God not only in his soul but also in his body. This is the justification of all external manifestations of worship — genuflexion, prostration, kneeling, standing, the sign of the cross, the lifting-up or imposition of hands. Furthermore, on the same principle it will readily be understood that, in rendering homage to God man may have recourse to animate or inanimate creatures (sacrifice of animals, incense, lights, flowers, etc.). Neither is it difficult to prove that, since man is a social being, his worship should be public and in common with others. Worship in private or even individual worship in public, is not sufficient. Society as such should also render to God the honour due to Him. Furthermore, it is natural that men who believe in the same God and experience towards Him the same sentiments of adoration, gratitude, and love should assemble to praise and thank Him.

In Christianity the worship offered to God has a special character which profoundly differentiates it from Jewish worship, for it is the worship of the Trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The worship of the Jews is directed to God, one, omnipotent, magnificent, sovereign, King of kings, Lord of lords, God of gods, but without distinction of persons. Prayer is addressed to Him as the living God, the Lord God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, or simply to the Lord our God. The formula, to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, remains in use among Christians, but ordinarily God is conceived of by Christians under other titles and with another form. In the worship which Christ paid to God He shows Him to us as the Father. He adores Him as His Father: "I confess to Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth" (Matthew 11:25; cf. Luke 10:21); "Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: remove this chalice from me" (Mark 14:36); "Father, sanctify me . . . Father glorify me . . . Just Father" (John 17). Already He seems to claim for Himself a worship of adoration equal to what he gives the Father: "If two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:19, 20). The Apostles and even those who were not His disciples prayed to Him during His life-time: "Lord, if it be thou, bid me to come to thee upon the waters" (Matthew 14:28); "Lord, save us, we perish" (Matthew 8:25); "Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean" (Matthew 8:2; cf. Mark 1:40; Luke 5:12); "Have mercy on me, O Lord . . . But she came and adored him, saying: Lord, help me" (Matthew 15:22; 25), etc.

In virtue of the same principle and of the equality of the Divine Persons in the Trinity, the Holy Ghost also became the object of Christian worship. The formula of baptism was given, as has been seen, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. In the doxology the Holy Spirit also has a place with the Father and the Son. In the Mass the Holy Ghost is invoked at the Epiclesis and invited to prepare the sacrifice. The Montanists, who in the second century preached, and awaited, the coming of the Holy Ghost to take the place of the Son and announce a more perfect Gospel, made Him the object of an exclusive worship, which the Church had to repress. But it nevertheless vindicated the adoration of the Holy Ghost, and in 380 the anathemas pronounced by Pope Damasus, in the Fourth Council of Rome, condemned whosoever should deny that the Holy Ghost must be adored like the Father and the Son by every creature (Denzinger, Enchiridion, n. 80). These anathemas were renewed by Celestine I and Virgilius, and the ecumenical council of 381 in its symbol, which took its place in the liturgy, formulated its faith in the Holy Ghost, "Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified." These expressions indicate the unity of the adoration of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; that is, that one or the other Person of the Trinity may be adored separately but not to the exclusion of the other two.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm"]source[/url]

Also, your definition of worship is incredibly narrow. To limit worship to latriea is to misunderstand the nature of what worship is. Worship is much larger and more complex than latriea.

[Cam42]

The reasoning that latria is so narrow, that latria deals only with God the Father. Through understanding terminology, it became understood that that in the Christian lexicon, that there are three ways to worship. There is dulia the honour paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone, and hyperdulia the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary. St. Augustine (City of God X.2) distinguishes two kinds of servitus: "one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God".

So, if you only follow latria in form of worship, then you are denying the honor given to the Saints and to Mary. This existed prior to and is known to be provable through most early Christian philosophers, going back as far as St. Augustine. Even Protestants understand this principle, a good example of this is Liebniz. So from a Christian and ultimately Catholic POV, there is much more to worship than simply latria.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

That is definitely an extensive view and teaching on worship, and I won't really argue what you said there, because worshiping God for who he is, and Jesus Christ for who he is, and the Holy Spirit for who he is is pretty much a requirement.

I only posted that worship stuff because KoC in the Assassi thread shows a lack of the fruit of love, IMHO, because he thinks anybody who worships God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit outside the Catholic church looks vile and displeases God. Someone needs to teach him some humility when he is talking to a fellow brother or sister, who just doesn't follow the same path to Christ as he took - and he is preaching a Christ that doesn't exist in the scriptures - and that is the only document we can point to and say - this is the Christ the Apostles preached is the Bible, and anybody who preaches a Christ that the apostles taught, according to scripture, is cursed. . .

Should I allow him to continue sinning without saying he is sinning!

Edited January 16, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295211532' post='2200792']
That is definitely an extensive view and teaching on worship, and I won't really argue what you said there, because worshiping God for who he is, and Jesus Christ for who he is, and the Holy Spirit for who he is is pretty much a requirement.

I only posted that worship stuff because KoC in the Assassi thread shows a lack of the fruit of love, IMHO, because he thinks anybody who worships God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit outside the Catholic church looks vile and displeases God. Someone needs to teach him some humility when he is talking to a fellow brother or sister, who just doesn't follow the same path to Christ as he took - and he is preaching a Christ that doesn't exist in the scriptures - and that is the only document we can point to and say - this is the Christ the Apostles preached is the Bible, and anybody who preaches a Christ that the apostles taught, according to scripture, is cursed. . .

Should I allow him to continue sinning without saying he is sinning!
[/quote]

False worship displeases God. Being humble and loving doesn't mean I will lie to you. Only the Catholic Church gives God true worship. Anything false displeases God because He is Truth Himself. Other faiths have elements of truth, but not the whole Truth, and only the whole Truth, is the Truth. A truth that is both true and false isn't a truth. Worship or adoration of God that is both true and false is not true worship, and only true worship pleases God. Lies, falsehoods, and other forms of things counter to truth is in various degrees displeasing to vile in the eyes of God.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1295215591' post='2200804']
False worship displeases God. Being humble and loving doesn't mean I will lie to you. Only the Catholic Church gives God true worship. Anything false displeases God because He is Truth Himself. Other faiths have elements of truth, but not the whole Truth, and only the whole Truth, is the Truth. A truth that is both true and false isn't a truth. Worship or adoration of God that is both true and false is not true worship, and only true worship pleases God. Lies, falsehoods, and other forms of things counter to truth is in various degrees displeasing to vile in the eyes of God.
[/quote]

And neither will I lie to you. Jesus disagrees with your stands.

[Cam42]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295219174' post='2200817']
And neither will I lie to you. Jesus disagrees with your stands.
[/quote]

How do you know? Would you care to expound upon your personal knowledge of Christ's thoughts?

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295219880' post='2200822']
How do you know? Would you care to expound upon your personal knowledge of Christ's thoughts?
[/quote]

Sure.

[sup][/sup][quote]Mark 9:38-40[sup]

[/sup]And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part.[/quote]

And -


[quote]Luke 9:49-50

And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.[/quote]

And considering

[quote]Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.[/quote]

Considering Christ is the same yesterday, when he said to the apostles - that person who also calls out on my name to perform miracles, who teaches and loves me who isn't part of your group pleases me and is for me, then he also has the same attitude today - or scripture is wrong, and will always have that attitude.

So Christ disagrees with his stand that you must be a Catholic to please God - you only have to believe in and trust Jesus Christ!

[Cam42]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295220894' post='2200824']
Sure.

[sup][/sup]

And -




And considering



Considering Christ is the same yesterday, when he said to the apostles - that person who also calls out on my name to perform miracles, who teaches and loves me who isn't part of your group pleases me and is for me, then he also has the same attitude today - or scripture is wrong, and will always have that attitude.

So Christ disagrees with his stand that you must be a Catholic to please God - you only have to believe in and trust Jesus Christ!
[/quote]

See, the problem with using Scripture is that who's interpretation are you going on? We agree about Sacred Scripture being the Word of God, but we don't claim to have personal insight. So, my question to you still stands, "How do you know?" With any certainty, how can you be certain that you are interpreting the Scripture properly? Because the next guy down the street could say something totally different with the same authority as yours. Whereas, with the Church's interpretation, we are not reliant on any one person, but 2000 years of Tradition and teaching to back up our position. You haven't convinced me that you're correct yet, btw...

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295222189' post='2200830']
See, the problem with using Scripture is that who's interpretation are you going on? We agree about Sacred Scripture being the Word of God, but we don't claim to have personal insight. So, my question to you still stands, "How do you know?" With any certainty, how can you be certain that you are interpreting the Scripture properly? Because the next guy down the street could say something totally different with the same authority as yours. Whereas, with the Church's interpretation, we are not reliant on any one person, but 2000 years of Tradition and teaching to back up our position. You haven't convinced me that you're correct yet, btw...
[/quote]

And it these debates that go on in our own parliamentsover constitutions and how we need to enforce the law.

Whose ideas is right about the economy - Republicans who think if you give tax cuts to the rich so they can hire more people to work for him, or the democrat who says we need to tax the rich man more because we can spend on social programs. (BTW, if anybody says - but this or that about one party or the other because of this statement, shame on you - I'm only using this as a hypothetical example of what I am saying)

This is a real world example of people can still have a heart to help people but disagree on how to help them. So lets just say - our ways may be different, and how we see things may be different, but that doesn't mean we aren't on the same side, and God disapproves of how either of us lives our lives.

Now, to say - it must be one thing and not the other - well then, you don't have a republic based upon rules for us to follow, but a dictatorship where people are afraid to do anything wrong because they will be punished.

Since God is love, and perfect love casts away all fear, and he doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind - and your traditions are designed to make people fall in line lest you get excommunicated and go to hell, then I'm not to worried if I am right or wrong in your eyes. We will just have to agree to allow the Lord judge between my walk and your walk when the time of judgment happens.

So again, Jesus says he doesn't care if someone is of one group or the other, as long as they are for him, because if they are for him, than they are for anybody else who also is for him.

Edited January 17, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295219174' post='2200817']
And neither will I lie to you. Jesus disagrees with your stands.
[/quote]

I agree with you Mark. God created all of mankind for the intention of Eternal Life. The only way to displease him is to break the two commandments, which are really only one. And that is to not love your neighbour which he is doing by his judgement. The two commandments sound simple but in fact they are not! You must obey every other commandment of love in order to satisfy them. KoC Clearly does not understand this!

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1295224672' post='2200846']
I agree with you Mark. God created all of mankind for the intention of Eternal Life. The only way to displease him is to break the two commandments, which are really only one. And that is to not love your neighbour which he is doing by his judgement. The two commandments sound simple but in fact they are not! You must obey every other commandment of love in order to satisfy them. KoC Clearly does not understand this!
[/quote]

And that is why he sent his son to us, because we are incapable of doing those two things, and because we can't, Jesus said - I can and I will - so you don't have to do anything but believe in what I did to please God.

That is what in Protestant circles (the ones that actually care about the truth) call justification. Of course, sanctification - to become holy before the lord and to fully turn our backs from sin, well can take a lifetime.

KoC needs to take a step back and consider all of this, because I said it in another thread that Satan can deceive by being a spirit of strong religious beliefs as well as weak ones. He should consider his own heart, to make sure he isn't being deceived right now by the devil.

Edited January 17, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann

[Cam42]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295222876' post='2200834']
Since God is love, and perfect love casts away all fear, and he doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind - and your traditions are designed to make people fall in line lest you get excommunicated and go to hell, then I'm not to worried if I am right or wrong in your eyes. We will just have to agree to allow the Lord judge between my walk and your walk when the time of judgment happens.

So again, Jesus says he doesn't care if someone is of one group or the other, as long as they are for him, because if they are for him, than they are for anybody else who also is for him.
[/quote]

Again, on who's authority are you justifying your interpretation? You haven't said yet. How do I know with any certainty that you're correct? Am I supposed to take it upon Faith? If I take it upon Faith that you're correct, I can't be certain that it is the Faith that Christ proclaimed, because I can't be certain that you're correct in the interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

As a Catholic, which is not a denomination, but rather the Church, (ie. ecclesia) has handed us an indisputable truth of interpretation of Sacred Scripture from the Apostles until today. I can be certain that the Church and not simply one man has given me the truth.

It is certainly within your privy to believe me right or wrong, but Christ also said:

Matthew 10:11-14
[quote]And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet.[/quote]

Jesus was not talking about one person bringing the message, but rather the leaders of his Church. We can be certain that the truth of Scripture belongs not to one, but to the deposit of Faith, as promoted by the Apostles who he sent out. The successors of the Apostles exist today in the bishops of the Church, not in any one person....Certainty belongs to the Church, not to the opinings of one man.

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295226103' post='2200860']Matthew 10:11-14

Jesus was not talking about one person bringing the message, but rather the leaders of his Church. We can be certain that the truth of Scripture belongs not to one, but to the deposit of Faith, as promoted by the Apostles who he sent out. The successors of the Apostles exist today in the bishops of the Church, not in any one person....Certainty belongs to the Church, not to the opinings of one man.
[/quote]

LOL.

By using that scripture, you are saying this also.

[quote]Matthew 10:15

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. [/quote]

Again, you are using fear tactics to scare people into following 'the one true catholic church'.

Sorry, I am quite confident that the Lord will judge me wisely and compassionately when I am before his throne in judgment, because I have only one recourse for the life I have lived, throw myself at the mercy of the court!

[Cam42]

[quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1295226532' post='2200862']
LOL.

By using that scripture, you are saying this also.



Again, you are using fear tactics to scare people into following 'the one true catholic church'.

Sorry, I am quite confident that the Lord will judge me wisely and compassionately when I am before his throne in judgment, because I have only one recourse for the life I have lived, throw myself at the mercy of the court!
[/quote]


Those are Jesus' words...so by your logic, it is Jesus who's using the scare tactics....

And you still haven't addressed the validity of your interpretation...how can I trust your interpretation over that of 2000 years of consistent teaching?

[MarkKurallSchuenemann]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295236044' post='2200903']
Those are Jesus' words...so by your logic, it is Jesus who's using the scare tactics....

And you still haven't addressed the validity of your interpretation...how can I trust your interpretation over that of 2000 years of consistent teaching?
[/quote]

I'm not going to teach anybody about how to rightly divide the word of God, which is the mark of a believer, but you are applying those scriptures on me - and that simply shows how much you don't understand scripture because of your traditions.

if you want to say that you are shaking the dust off your feet because I don't accept your faith, and that means, in your logic, that it is better for Sodom and Gomorrha than for me, than you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Like I said before Cam, lets us agree to allow the Lord judge between your walk and my walk on the day of judgment - and see which one was lead by the spirit and which one wasn't.

Jesus sings a much different tune than you, and I reject the Christ you are preaching because is it not the Christ that the apostles preached.