Holding Hands During Our Father At Mass

[Mr.Cat]

If I were in Italy with my family, we would hold hands with nhili on both sides, just to be intimidating. We Italians do not share the American need for space and lack of contact.

[MIKolbe]

ummm

he's canadien, dude.

[Mr.Cat]

Corrected. But same issue.

[Lil Red]

if someone grabbed my hand outta nowhere, they would find themselves on the receiving end of my knuckles.

[MIKolbe]

(note to self.. Do not hold Lil Red's hand without expressed written consent)

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308168112' post='2254142']
While I can see the value of this argument, I think it puts a pastoral spin on something that wasn't designed to be pastoral to begin with... i could be wrong, though...
[/quote]

I didn't mean to put that into it...

It's kinda like whatever could appear disruptive to the Mass in the setting that you are in, which will distract the normal attendees of that parish. Of course I mean this in the context of those things that are not liturgically correct.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308169847' post='2254182']
For me it's a combination of psychological and theological. Theologically, it's superfluous. Roughly on the level of holding a rosary or medal in your hands during Mass to help you pray.
So theologically it's not necessary, which leaves some limited, reasonable freedom to us laypeople. In that context, that's where psychology comes in. I don't like holding hands. It makes me personally uncomfortable. That's all just multiplied to an enormous degree if I feel like I'm being pressured or forced.
So theologically unnecessary objectively, and subjectively, on my personal level, harmful to my participation in the Mass.
[/quote]

Ok, thank you for clarifying your feelings on this issue. : )

[Lil Red]

especially with that gun pointed at you.

edit: was responding to MIKolbe's comment above TPO

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308170430' post='2254190']We Italians do not share the American need for space and lack of contact.
[/quote]
Or personal hygiene.

[mortify]

[quote name='socalscout' timestamp='1308164221' post='2254101']
Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? [/quote]

Yes, it's THAT big of a deal. The Liturgy is Sacred, it's not some communal performance that one can do how one pleases. So keep your hands down! The orans position during the liturgy is for priests, not for laity.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308170827' post='2254203']Or personal hygiene.[/quote]Stereotyping?

Though I suppose the space and contact issue could be seen as a stereotype, but it is an observed sociological phenomena far as I am aware. But I think it less offensive to call a group of people touchy than dirty, but that is a personal appraisal.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1295140200' post='2200545']
If you hold hands at Mass during the Our Father, you are a fruitcake. You are also a fruitcake if you lift your hands up then or when you're "praying over" someone.
[/quote]

Winnie, don't ever change.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1308170938' post='2254204']
Yes, it's THAT big of a deal. The Liturgy is Sacred, it's not some communal performance that one can do how one pleases. So keep your hands down! The orans position during the liturgy is for priests, not for laity.
[/quote]

No one said it was a communal performance, except those (to my knowledge) that have a beef with holding hand during the Our Father.

If a parish does it, and it's not a disturbance during the Mass, then it's not a big deal at all.

I know in my own parish we do it and if someone doesn't wish to, then it's not a big deal. You still pray the Our Father regardless.

Otherwise, us laypeople can just stop critiquing how the Mass should go and if Pope Benedict thinks this form of apparent liturgical abuse has some credence to proclaim it inexcusable then let him say it. (sorry for the snarkyness here, but I find these sort of debates or discussions or whatever they are on phatmass silly.)

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308170970' post='2254206']
Stereotyping?

Though I suppose the space and contact issue could be seen as a stereotype, but it is an observed sociological phenomena far as I am aware. But I think it less offensive to call a group of people touchy than dirty, but that is a personal appraisal.
[/quote]
No, it is a fact that Italians are dirty people. Greasy too. And lesser evolved than us Nordic Europeans and Anglo-Saxons.

[Lil Red]

the criticism about imitating the priest's actions are legitimate, imho.

i've seen people imitate pretty much everything the priest does (including starting to say/sing the "Through Him, With Him, In Him" part), and I believe it started with extending hands (as the priest does) during the "Our Father." It's not appropriate. It's a clericalization of the laity.

I recently [url="http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-pervasive-liturgical-abuses.html"]read something[/url] by Fr. Philip (he is quoting from Redemptionis Sacramentum):
[quote]45. To be avoided is the danger of obscuring the complementary relationship between the action of clerics and that of laypersons, in such a way that the ministry of laypersons undergoes what might be called a certain “clericalization,” while the sacred ministers inappropriately assume those things that are proper to the life and activity of the lay faithful.[/quote]

and

[quote]183. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

184. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308175566' post='2254260']
the criticism about imitating the priest's actions are legitimate, imho.

i've seen people imitate pretty much everything the priest does (including starting to say/sing the "Through Him, With Him, In Him" part), and I believe it started with extending hands (as the priest does) during the "Our Father." It's not appropriate. It's a clericalization of the laity.

I recently [url="http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-pervasive-liturgical-abuses.html"]read something[/url] by Fr. Philip (he is quoting from Redemptionis Sacramentum):


and


[/quote]

whether it's appropriate or not is it heretical? Would it cause more trouble then it's really worth?

I'm honestly just trying to get to the bottom of this topic here, because there is a certain amount of idealization that we hold the Mass to, which is fine, since as Catholics we all strive to offer up a perfect Mass to the Lord, yet to let such things as hold hands during the 'Our Father' get into such an overpowering focus gets obnoxious to some who think it doesn't really matter at all.