Lilllabettt Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it. Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing. If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise. If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them. I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that) I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404'] It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it. Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing. If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise. If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them. I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that) I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs. [/quote] Alleluia thanks be to god, wise answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404'] The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing. [/quote] no. way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404'] It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it. Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing. If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise. If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them. I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that) I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs. [/quote] The whole rules thing, yeah, that's not American. We have rubrics (rules) that are handed to us by Rome. I would argue that it is more of an American thing to NOT follow the rules. Although parts of Europe are pretty bad too. As for actually holding hands during the Our Father, there is a proscription about adding things which I quoted above. Not being legalistic, being factual. If you don't like it, too bad. We are a ritualistic Church. Everything we do has meaning and those meanings are guided by rules. Rules are not there to hinder us, but to help us to be more in union with our worship of the Lord. As for the sending things to Rome, I can guarantee you that is how Rome wants it. They've said it over and over and over. That is not a bad thing either. You'd be surprised and what does go over. I have a priest friend who works in the Vatican....most of it is poppy-pickle (his words, not mine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM[/media] are we soldiers? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1295117046' post='2200398'] Dominus Pax, I prefer greeting a sister in christ with a peace be with you and a kiss on the cheek, and a brother in christ with a peace be with you and a hug(sometimes if i haven't seen a brother in a while and get excited i will kiss him on the forehead). If the person beside me at mass want's to hold hands during the our father(as a sign of trust and fidelity towards one another and God) than sure, for me it is not to be confused with the biblical laying of hands where saint paul warns us not to allow another to lay hands on them willy nilly so to speak, i assume this is because not everyone has the gift of laying of hands. Hope that helps. Yours Truely Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye God bless P.S. if somone can give me chatechismal or biblical proof(chapter/verse) that holding hands at anytime(especially in this instance during the our father) is in anyway contrary to the faith please illuminate me i need to know. P.S.S. of course i also have nothing against not holding hands or not cheek kissing, i truely require no exacta on these matters it is a personal choice,unless there is some doctrinal exacta that exists biblicaly or traditionaly.And i do understand some don't like to touch much even as a greeting for whatever reason,hey some people have muscular and skeletal disorders and it hurts to touch, amongst a possible 1000 other reasons. [/quote] There is nothing in scripture about this particular issue, so there is no biblical proof, but that is one of the glories of the Church. We have Sacred Tradition. Traditionally, this is not how we have exchanged the Kiss of Peace. Through time, tradition had it as an act of the ministers only and even then only during the Solemn Mass. The Kiss of Peace is first a metaphysical symbol of the sacrifice of the Mass, then only a literal exchange. It wasn't until the 1960s that the Kiss was extended to the whole of the congregation. That being said, it is just another way of making the Mass more active (participatio activa) as opposed to actual (participatio actuosa). The latter is the internalizing of the Mass and the much more important aspect. Although the powers that be who reformed the Mass switched the impotice on which we assist at Holy Mass (that is a totally different thread). So, suffice to say, the Kiss is something that is not necessary from an external POV and to this day remains only optional. However 99.9% of parishes do it. N.B. Not to be a complete stick in the mud, but your Latin is wrong. It is not Dominus Pax, but rather Pax Domini. You're speaking to multiple persons. The way you did it, you're confusing tense and number. Dominus is singular, Pax is plural. Sorry, that is like fingers down a chalk board for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1295120015' post='2200422'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM[/media] are we soldiers? lol. [/quote] Gracious thanks Brother. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295119651' post='2200419'] As for actually holding hands during the Our Father, there is a proscription about adding things which I quoted above. Not being legalistic, being factual. If you don't like it, too bad. We are a ritualistic Church. Everything we do has meaning and those meanings are guided by rules. Rules are not there to hinder us, but to help us to be more in union with our worship of the Lord. [/quote] i agree with the comment...(except for the sentence, "If you don't like it, too bad.") Every single thing we do during the Mass, every movement, gesture is lined out in the GIRM, because every single thing we do, say, has a specific meaning behind it. It is NOT correct to add things to the Mass, as this breaks with the continuity of unitive worship for Catholics. PLUS a lot of the added gestures really are meaningless.... I especially get bothered when the laity start reflecting the movements of the Priest on the altar...as in lifting up their arms at the prayer after the Our Father (and if your hand is still attached to their hand, they lift up your arm as well...) Once, a 6 footer stood by me in Mass, when he lifted my arm up, my feet nearly came off the ground!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295120188' post='2200423']do it. N.B. Not to be a complete stick in the mud, but your Latin is wrong. It is not Dominus Pax, but rather Pax Domini. You're speaking to multiple persons. The way you did it, you're confusing tense and number. Dominus is singular, Pax is plural. Sorry, that is like fingers down a chalk board for me... [/quote] Yes i typed it wrong, was meant to be dominus vobiscum(may the lord be with your spirit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) I thought I was the only one who didn't like to shake hands with strangers during the kiss of peace or hold hands during the Our Father. Shaking hands in business is common, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable to me. As far as holding hands, I see that as something personal, even intimate, that I don't do with strangers--or even necessarily with friends. For me, I think it's because I see worship as something very personal. I have no problem with bowing to my neighbors or waving, but not shaking or holding hands, except when I would attend services with my ex-husband. If I am going to hold hands with someone, I want it to be someone of my choosing. The worst time was when a congregation held hands, and the man next to me had a very deformed hand--virtually no hand at all. I didn't know the right way to hold his hand. Finally, he took my hand, so I would know how to hold his, but I felt like a jerk. If so many people dislike this, what does the priest say? Does he think people like it? Or that they SHOULD like it? Or that they are required to do it? I assume SOMEONE must have said something to him? I try to sit far away enough from other people that it's okay to just wave during the peace. But, it doesn't seem to work when the congregation holds hands--I'm expected to move over. Just for the record, I also hate group hugs. I hug individuals, but it is individuals of my choosing and when the situation is comfortable. I'm affectionate, but I don't like forced affection. I know a congregation is supposed to be "in fellowship" but in a large congregation, it feels to me the same as if an airplane captain suddenly required everyone on the airplane to greet each other, and to hold hands across the aisle. I won't even mention germs. It might be a good argument for taking communion by mouth, so you don't have to touch the host with the hand that just held a stranger's hand, and maybe he or she has a cold, and doesn't know it yet. After shaking or holding hands wth a stranger, depending on the circumstances, I have been known to surreptitiously reach into my very large purse where I keep my anti-bacterial/anti-viral/anti-almost everything super-duper, hospital-grade hand wash. (In my case, I'm not over-reacting because I have immune system problems, but I shouldn't need that excuse.) I've been tempted to just say to the people on either side of me that I think I'm coming down with a cold and beg off touching them. The only problem is that you couldn't use that excuse every week--or maybe you could. Edited January 15, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 we, as a family, have cut down how many people we shake hands with (as a starting point). we don't go out of our way to shake everyone's hand. we also do not hold hands (not even each others') during the Our Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1295120966' post='2200429'] Yes i typed it wrong, was meant to be dominus vobiscum(may the lord be with your spirit). [/quote] In that instance, you would have been more correct to say, Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. Rather than dominus vobiscum. You weren't calling for one to enter into prayer. The latter is a specific call to prayer. The Pax Domini is more appropriate.... I'm a bit of a Latinist, 10 years of the stuff will do that to ya.....sorry.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1295122051' post='2200442'] I thought I was the only one who didn't like to shake hands with strangers during the kiss of peace or hold hands during the Our Father. Shaking hands in business is common, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable to me. As far as holding hands, I see that as something personal, even intimate, that I don't do with strangers--or even necessarily with friends. For me, I think it's because I see worship as something very personal. I have no problem with bowing to my neighbors or waving, but not shaking or holding hands, except when I would attend services with my ex-husband. If I am going to hold hands with someone, I want it to be someone of my choosing. The worst time was when a congregation held hands, and the man next to me had a very deformed hand--virtually no hand at all. I didn't know the right way to hold his hand. Finally, he took my hand, so I would know how to hold his, but I felt like a jerk. If so many people dislike this, what does the priest say? Does he think people like it? Or that they SHOULD like it? Or that they are required to do it? I assume SOMEONE must have said something to him? I try to sit far away enough from other people that it's okay to just wave during the peace. But, it doesn't seem to work when the congregation holds hands--I'm expected to move over. Just for the record, I also hate group hugs. I hug individuals, but it is individuals of my choosing and when the situation is comfortable. I'm affectionate, but I don't like forced affection. I know a congregation is supposed to be "in fellowship" but in a large congregation, it feels to me the same as if an airplane captain suddenly required everyone on the airplane to greet each other, and to hold hands across the aisle. I won't even mention germs. It might be a good argument for taking communion by mouth, so you don't have to touch the host with the hand that just held a stranger's hand, and maybe he or she has a cold, and doesn't know it yet. After shaking or holding hands wth a stranger, depending on the circumstances, I have been known to surreptitiously reach into my very large purse where I keep my anti-bacterial/anti-viral/anti-almost everything super-duper, hospital-grade hand wash. (In my case, I'm not over-reacting because I have immune system problems, but I shouldn't need that excuse.) I've been tempted to just say to the people on either side of me that I think I'm coming down with a cold and beg off touching them. The only problem is that you couldn't use that excuse every week--or maybe you could. [/quote] How many abuses are you going to bring up in one post.....WOW!!!! LOL!!! See, that is why I kneel and reflect on the Our Father and the actual peace I am praying for, then those around me choose not to interrupt me as I am praying for them. I suppose that if they stuck their hand in my face I would shake it, but in the 15 years I've been offering the peace that way, I've yet to run into anyone who has done that.....I'm just sayin'.... Also, as an aside, here's a dubium for you....if we are not to self communicate (which we are not), then how can we justify taking Holy Communion in our hands and placing it on our tongues? Is that not self-communicating? Same applies to the Precious Blood. If we take the chalice and drink, are we not self-communicating? I think that maybe we are and that we are being told that it is ok to do something that is forbidden by liturgical law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1295106582' post='2200341'] Some people think I'm being unfriendly or weird for not doing it like everyone else. [/quote] I quit our church choir because I got tired of being made fun of for not wanting my hands grabbed every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1295123778' post='2200456'] I quit our church choir because I got tired of being made fun of for not wanting my hands grabbed every week. [/quote] it amazes me how childish some adults can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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