Letters Of Clement I.... Do We Have Records Of Them?

[infinitelord1]

Is there any evidence that they exist?

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

Clement I does write to the Church in Corinth. We have that letter. He writes in the name of the Christian Community in Rome and begins the letter actually with an apology. The letter opens with him apologizing for being so late in addressing the problems of the Corinthians. They apparently had been having problems and could have expected to hear from Rome earlier. Clement councils them to listen to their bishop who God gave them and sends them several people as examples of the Christian way of life to help them. Apparently, Rome had significant influence even in the yr. 96 in that they wrote letters addressing problems and counseling other Churches in the appropriate ways to live the Christian faith and sending them examples. This influence and counsel, which is expressed as Christian love, could be expected from other Churches, and in the final part of the letter, the Church of Rome makes clear that in writing to the Corinthians they are fulfilling the role God has given to them and are doing His will by bearing messages to the Corinthians.

In this letter, one can see the Church of Rome already being an exemplar of the Apostolic Tradition and drawing its authority and position from this living of the Tradition of the Apostles. It mentions the role of the Bishop shortly and the need to obey our bishops. As such, it is safe to assume that Clement wrote the letter in the name of the Christian community in Rome. However, one must be careful not to read the present back into the past. If one really wants to read stuff about the authority of the Pope and where his authority comes from over the Church, one should read Irenaeus and Pope Leo I. Both men are considered Fathers of the Church. Irenaeus was a bishop in Gaul and was originally from Asia minor- so he understood the eastern and western mindsets. He also heard Polycarp preach and tell stories about John the Beloved Disciple. Polycarp was John's disciple. He also remembers when Polycarp (bishop of the Church of Smyrna) when to Rome at age 90 to meet Pope Anicetus. They were trying to resolve a conflict in the liturgical calendars each Church held since each drew their calendars from the Apostles (Smyrna from John and Phillip and Rome from Peter and Paul). Irenaeus notes that except for the minor difference in Church calendars (the Roman favored feasts on Sundays while the Symrnan used Jewish months to mark certain feasts) Polycarp found that everything the Roman Church did and taught was in union with what he had learned from John concerning Christ and the way Christians should live. Irenaeus has much to say about the role of Rome in the Church. Also, Leo I has a great deal to say about the role of the Pope as well. He really does alot if you are looking for a theory and a framework concerning the Papacy.

[Papist]

Here's some info, [url="http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Clement_I,_Saint"]http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Clement_I,_Saint[/url]

[CatherineM]

We have the same evidence of Clement's writings that we have of any early church writings including the gospels. They were important enough to be preserved and re-copied over the centuries. When the debate over what should be included in the Canon of the Bible was going on, there were some who actually wanted Clement's writings to be included. I think that says a lot about how important they are.

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1294900697' post='2199595']
Is there any evidence that they exist?
[/quote]
Obviously we have evidence they exist or we wouldn't be quoting them. (Unless you want to question the authenticity of every writing preserved-copied from ancient times)

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Here's a compilation of writings from the early Fathers affirming the authority of the Pope in the early Church: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp"]The Authority of the Pope: Part I[/url]

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1294945840' post='2199722']
Obviously we have evidence they exist or we wouldn't be quoting them. (Unless you want to question the authenticity of every writing preserved-copied from ancient times)

"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58–59, 63 [A.D. 80]).

Here's a compilation of writings from the early Fathers affirming the authority of the Pope in the early Church: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp"]The Authority of the Pope: Part I[/url]
[/quote]

I understand your cynicism. I just wanted to see the letters thats all.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1294925920' post='2199620']
Here's some info, [url="http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Clement_I,_Saint"]http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Pope_Clement_I,_Saint[/url]
[/quote]


I'm not really seeing where Clement is claiming authority over other Bishops here. It explains how they have a letter, written by Clement, to the people at Corinth. But it is thought that there was no Bishop in Corinth at the time.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296278450' post='2206251']
I'm not really seeing where Clement is claiming authority over other Bishops here. It explains how they have a letter, written by Clement, to the people at Corinth. But it is thought that there was no Bishop in Corinth at the time.
[/quote]

No in the letter he is expressly telling them to obey their bishop and not try to depose the bishop they elected from among the presbyters. In writing to the Corinthians to tell them to obey their bishop, the Roman community believes they are doing God's will and have the authority to advise their Corinthian brothers and sisters on appropriate Christians action. This speaks volumes that the community of Rome has this ability and can be expected to exercise such authority through advising communities in other geographical areas and under other bishops.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam

[dairygirl4u2c]

can someone cite an authority that there was no corinth bishop?
even if there was, it's not like it's a 'im infallible so listen to me', so much as something else like the orthodox would characterize it as (church of primacy, heirarchy does matter even if not infallible), arguably at least.

Edited January 29, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c