Who Wants To Make Me A Catholic First? Lol.

[cmotherofpirl]

Jesus did say I am WITH you always...
Adam go spend some time before the Eucharist .
He is always home.

[ilovechrist]

i'm trying to think of how i can approach this..
think about it----many people left after Jesus told everyone what they must do in John 6--because the teaching was too hard. since his apostles remained, they accepted this teaching literally... therefore how can this teaching be wrong? i'll keep posting later on this, it's a good debate.

[willguy]

My $.02....

My first Eucharistic Adoration was a bit awkward. Part of me was like "I'm kneeling before a host of bread. Even if it is Christ, it still LOOKS like bread. Am I kneeling before the substance of it (the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) or the accidents of it (the appearance)?"

Think about the disciples. When they kneeled before Christ, they were not worshipping His appearance, His accidents, but His substance, His essence.

Now, how do we know the Eucharist is His Soul and Divinity as well as His Body and Blood? If it was just His Body and Blood, it would be no different than the Body that was laid in the Holy Sepulchre. It was then that Jesus' Body and Blood were separate from His Soul and Divinity (at least that's my perception, if I'm talkin heresy someone stop me). However, the Eucharist is united with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, a living sacrifice. Therefore, if the Eucharist is truely a participation in that same sacrifice, then the host is the fullness of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, because that is what hung upon the Cross. And, if it is the fullness of Christ, then how can one not adore it?

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='willguy' date='Apr 20 2004, 02:59 PM'] My $.02....

My first Eucharistic Adoration was a bit awkward. Part of me was like "I'm kneeling before a host of bread. Even if it is Christ, it still LOOKS like bread. Am I kneeling before the substance of it (the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ) or the accidents of it (the appearance)?"

Think about the disciples. When they kneeled before Christ, they were not worshipping His appearance, His accidents, but His substance, His essence.

Now, how do we know the Eucharist is His Soul and Divinity as well as His Body and Blood? If it was just His Body and Blood, it would be no different than the Body that was laid in the Holy Sepulchre. It was then that Jesus' Body and Blood were separate from His Soul and Divinity (at least that's my perception, if I'm talkin heresy someone stop me). However, the Eucharist is united with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, a living sacrifice. Therefore, if the Eucharist is truely a participation in that same sacrifice, then the host is the fullness of Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, because that is what hung upon the Cross. And, if it is the fullness of Christ, then how can one not adore it? [/quote]
I don't know if it's heresy...

But Jesus has two natures, human and Divine. So His soul is Human and Divine and His Body is human and Divine. You can't say that just his soul was Divine. Jesus was fully God fully man. His human Body was also fully Divine. So when He died, His soul was seperated from His Body, as is what happens to us all. But His Divinity was not seperated from His Body. God died, and God rose. If you say that only His human Body died, and not His Divine Body as well, then you deny that God had to die (which I believe is heresy).

Hope that made sense.

[Hananiah]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 20 2004, 02:44 PM'] I guess what I'm saying is I need meat, not milk. Real solid arguments for the Real Presence, not copy and paste articles. [/quote]
[b]YOU WANT MEAT!?!?!? I'LL GIVE YOU MEAT UNTIL IT COMES OUT YOUR [u]NOSTRILS[/u] AND BECOMES [u]LOATHSOME[/u] TO YOU!!!![/b]

Sorry, Bro. Adam, I just can't help but quote that passage from Numbers at every opportunity.

Anyway, I know a pretty good, meaty argument for transubstantiation. Courtesy of [i]The Catholic Apologetics Study Bible, Vol. 1[/i] by Robert Sungenis:

The Greek of the institution of the Eucharist according to St. Matthew is [i]touto estin to soma mou[/i], literally, "this is the body of me." The demonstrative adjective [i]touto[/i] (=this) is neuter in gender, whereas [i]artos[/i] (=bread) is a masculine noun. Hence the demonstrative adjective [i]touto[/i] can not refer to the bread, and Jesus' meaning can not be "this bread is the body of me." Of course, if Jesus had said "this bread is the body of me," the text would allow for either the Protestant or the Catholic interpretation. However, as pointed out above this is not the case. [i]Touto[/i] refers to something else. Well, the only neuter noun in the context is [i]soma[/i] (=body), hence the meaning of Christ's statement is "this body is the body of me." Christ breaks bread, shows it to His disciples, and says "this body is the body of me." "Bread" is absolutely nowhere in His statement, which of course precludes the Protestant interpretation "this bread signifies my body." When Christ speaks the words of the institution, the host ceases to be bread, which is why He does not refer to it as bread; He simply refers to it as a body, and them informs His disciples whose Body it is, namely, His own.

Likewise with the chalice. He says [i]touto gar estin to aima mou[/i] (=this is the blood of me) with the neuter [/I]touto[i] corresponding to the neuter [i]aima[/i] (=blood). Hence the meaning is "this blood is the blood of me." Again, wine is nowhere in the description. Jesus shows His disciples the host, identifies it as blood, and then tells them whose Blood it is.

Edited April 20, 2004 by Hananiah

[hyperdulia again]

Milk...sorry...

If Christ is present in the Eucharist, what possible justification can there be to not worship Him? Fear that maybe He isn't? I know that you have recieved the Blessed Sacrament before (without knowing you weren't allowed), but when you come to the Altar trusting the Bible, trusting the Church, and trusting two millennia of Christian teaching there will be no doubts in your mind about whether or notyou should worship the Eucharist, or even whether or not you would be willinng to die for what looks like bread and wine.

[willguy]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Apr 20 2004, 05:38 PM'] I don't know if it's heresy...

But Jesus has two natures, human and Divine.  So His soul is Human and Divine and His Body is human and Divine.  You can't say that just his soul was Divine.  Jesus was fully God fully man.  His human Body was also fully Divine.  So when He died, His soul was seperated from His Body, as is what happens to us all.  But His Divinity was not seperated from His Body.  God died, and God rose.  If you say that only His human Body died, and not His Divine Body as well, then you deny that God had to die (which I believe is heresy).

Hope that made sense. [/quote]
Thankx Jake.

Wow, a quintuple post by hyper. That's gotta be a new record or somethin. Makes a good point though.

[myduwigd]

hey Brother here's a good book about an extreme Protestant's conversion to Catholicism thru study and prayer: Rome Sweet Home, by Scott and Kimberly Hahn
oh ya, God bless you iron monk, your logic made a lot of sense!

[God Conquers]

God recognized the fact that we as physical beings need to worship in a physical way. He gives us the most intimate gift of "being with us always" in the flesh, but more than that as physically inside us.

Put another way (and this kinda sounds gross if you take it the wrong way, but this is serious and sacred):

In heaven we will be totally united with God, in complete joy and intimacy with Him.
He wants to give us signs and tastes of that intimacy here on earth.

Sexual intercourse is the most intimate physical and spiritual connection we can have with another human being here on earth, and involves the complete giving of one to another. It produces fruit on earth in creating future generations.

We know that this is mirrored in the intimate Divine life of God. As the father gives totally to the sun, and the fruit of their union is the Holy Spirit.

In the same way the Eucharist is the most complete intimacy, spiritual and physical, that we can have with God here on earth. He gives himself totally to us, and we recieve. The fruit of this union is spiritual, we are compelled to live our lives in greater union with God, by serving Him.

God is so great, that he recognizes and caters to all of our needs, and signifies them in the sacraments.

[willguy]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 20 2004, 11:10 PM'] hey Brother here's a good book about an extreme Protestant's conversion to Catholicism thru study and prayer: Rome Sweet Home, by Scott and Kimberly Hahn
oh ya, God bless you iron monk, your logic made a lot of sense! [/quote]
Pretty sure he's already read it.

GC, nice post! Reminds me of what our priest said this weekend about Reconciliation. I'll have to remember to post it some time.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Hope you guys don't mind but I'm cleaning up all the multiple posts on this page.... thats alota posts... lol

[Muschi]

Dear Bro. Adam,

When I first saw the title of this post, my immediate response was God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

But your wrestling with belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist prompts me to "challenge" you when you have a moment, to enter a Catholic Church when it is open, and go sit before the tabernacle....you'll recognize it because there will be a lit red candle right next to it which represents that same Presence, and humbly kneel and ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and ask Jesus to show you or help you understand all of this better. All of the advice and input you've been given including Scripture has been right on, but it won't mean a thing until YOU can "see" and understand and come to believe it in your heart. I truly believe that if you do this, you will NOT be disappointed. - God bless! - Muschi

[Born Again Catholic]

This question makes me think of Baby Jesus (or even older Jesus) and how hard it would have been for the Jews or gentiles to have enough faith to recognize Jesus, someone who looked like on of them, as God incarnate.

Before I embraced the teachings of the Church, I had some similar issues with the Eucharist. My failure to reach out to God through prayer was my major stumbling block. I doubt that is an issue for you, Adam but I will share my story anyway.

Intellectually I knew the Catholic faith was true but I could not feel it in my heart. I struggled with it greatly and sought the opinion of the experts, by reading everything I could get a hold of, creating a fabulous library of Catholic thought. In the meantime my wife who was Baptist went through the RCIA program and embraced Jesus in the Eucharist without hesitation, while my heart was cold.

One Sunday I was feeling especially sorry for my self when I saw that the priest who was about to give mass was one I had thought was especially dry. I thought the Mass was incredibly dull anyway and that I got nothing out of it and I was actually upset that I had to listen to this priest.

All of a sudden the enormity of my own ingratitude hit me. God had given me a truly wonderful life and yet I gave him almost nothing in return. I studied about him but I did not sincerely show my love for Him through praise and prayer. At that moment I decided rather than asking God to make the Mass meaningful for me, I would give God that one hour at Mass, I would praise Him and adore Him with all that I had inside me. The Mass instantly became alive for me, I was praising God with all my heart and I was totally filled with joy.

Then the Eucharist prayer began, I had finally given myself to God and now I realized that God was truly offering Himself to me. Tears of joy streamed down my face as I went of to receive the Eucharist for the first time truly recognizing Jesus in the breaking of the Bread.

God Bless

Edited April 21, 2004 by Born Again Catholic

[point5]

I have just began my new journy of starting to research more about my Catholic faith, and the early church fathers. Here are some things I found interesting reguarding the Eucharist.

In Scott Hahn's book "A Father Who Keeps His Promises" he discusses the five major covenants throughout sacred Scripture:adam,noah,abraham,moses,and Jesus. He teaches covenant as not a contract or exchange of property, but covenant is an exchange of persons...

"I will by your God and you will be my people"

In the New covenant that Christ brings, the covenant family grows to an international level....all jews and Gentiles are called to his table. One thing that struck me in the Eucharist is that to be part of a family...what must you have in common...blood and flesh....genetics....this has helped me in understanding the true presence.

Also I was reading over the first passover during the plagues, and we are all familiar with the typology of the lamb sacrificed preludes to Jesus as the Lamb who will ultimately sacrifice for all to be saved. What struck me was that the instruction was not only to sacrifice the lamb and spread the blood over the door...but also that the lamb shall have "no bone broken" and the family shall eat of it!!!

Lastly Scott Hahn points out in his live conversion testimony that when Jesus recites the passage in John 6 the crowd of thousands that had been following him leaves him and abandons him upon hearing that they must eat his flesch and drink his blood. As a teacher he would have been morally obligated to say no wait...this is only a symbol...but he didnt.... instead he turned to the disciples and said "are you too going to leave me?" It is clear that the crowd did not perceive this as a symbolic meaning. The disciples were still confused...but they followed him...and would understand greater at the Last Supper.

-Kiel

[Brother Adam]

You people rock. Thank you.

I'm on section three now of The Lamb's Supper. And I've been attending weekly mass. Errie. lol.