Brother Adam Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Those that know me know that when I started learning about Catholic doctrine I study just about every argument involved with each doctrine. Basically I started with some of the minor stuff (icons, calling pastors "father"), and worked my way up (Mary, Communion of the Saints). Now I can explain most Catholic doctrine better than many Catholics. But here we are. I'm now standing in front of the Eucharist doctrine. Real Presence? I don't know. Symbolism? Bull. I've read the Catholic.com articles. I know what the Early Church Fathers say (sorry Ironmonk). And I can recite John 6 in its original language. I'm most of the way through the Lamb's Supper. I guess what I'm saying is I need meat, not milk. Real solid arguments for the Real Presence, not copy and paste articles. Right now, what I'm having a hard time connecting, is that Catholics believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist- it is his blood and body, not bread and wine. But is it appropriate to worship his body and blood? Or is Christ present spiritually in the Eucharist. I guess it is the worship of the Eucharist that I'm at odds with. I look forward to your explainations. God Bless, Bro. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I'm only going to answer a small part of your question, right now I'm not feeling qualified to compose a reply that is a "meat not milk" argument, I'll leave that to the experts. Its ok to worship the Eucharist because it is FULLY Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We do not worship Him because of His humanity, we worship because of His Divinity. I'm not sure I understand how one part of Jesus can be seperated from the other--He is fully God and fully man, completely united. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 If the Eucharist is only His Body and Blood, and NOT His Soul and Divinity, then there are major theological issues with the docrine of the two natures of Christ. If the Eucharist is just his Body and Blood, then you would have to ask yourself if Mary is the Mother of Christs Body ONLY. But if you believe that Mary gave birth to God incarnate, Body Blood Soul and Divinity, then you MUST believe this about the Eucharist. God is the maker of all things. He is who attaches substance to accidents. If he tells me that my silver coin is really gold, then although it may look silver, and although scientifically it is silver, I know, because God told me so, that it is gold. I would have a hard time getting it's moneys worth from a jeweller, but I know it is gold. God the Son, while He was at supper with His Apostles told them that the bread that He was offering them was His Body. Scientifically it was bread in all of it's accidents, but the Apostles knew that it was His Body, because He told them it was. Substance is what makes something what it is. Accidents are God's way of identifying what it is for us. We look at water and we know it is water. But for one time in History, God has changed the Substance of something so that the accidents do not indicate what it is. It looks like bread, but it is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote]I guess what I'm saying is I need meat, not milk. [/quote] And God knew that is what you wanted, so He left you His Flesh for the Life of the World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 You say it's the worship of the Eucharist that you're at odds with. Well, in a nutshell, if the bread and wine remained bread and wine after the consecration, it would be idolatry to worship it. But since it becomes Jesus, it's only right that we worship Him even under the form of bread and wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 ya know this is something that i wrestled with trying to understand deeper...the whole accidents things and one of my friends explained it to me like this ok take two of your friends (bro adam perhaps your wife and a friend) ok your wife knows you, knows what you look like, how you act, different quirks about your personality etc etc etc now imagine that the personality of your friend was put into your body.....but you retain all of your physical characteristics now, you still like like you and your wife can identify you physically but does not recognize what is inside i hope that made a bit of sense.....in the end though, i think it all comes down to faith, and trusting in God's word that when He said "this is My body....this is My blood" you just gotta believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 Good so far. Keep it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 Woah. Two more in the time I made one small post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxk Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Well, we do know that many times when Jesus passed through the crowds with His Apostles, some people would actually reach out to touch Him, and they were cured of their sicknesses. It's like a last leap of Faith that they encountered as they went through their mind: "I know he is the Christ; if I reach out and just touch Him I will be cured." or something like that...) They were showing honor and paying homage to His Body, instead of just calling out to Jesus and asking Him to heal them (which He also could have done and did do one many accounts.) It's kind of the same with the Eucharist (for me at least). Jesus being physically present is no easy belief; it takes prayer, but when someone takes that leap of Faith in accepting God's most complex mysteries, they have come to know and understand Him more... God Bless, maxk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I have a few comments. 1.) Christians have worshipped Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist from the beginning. This is evident in that every apostolic Church (seperated brethren that would have at one time been called "schismatics") still believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. If it were idolatry, then for 1500 years Christendom was in darkness and sin, and the gates of hell would have overtaken us from the beginning. I believe it was not until the reformer Zwingli that belief in the real presence came under wide scrutiny, but you would know better than I. 2.) I know Jesus is really present in the Eucharist because of the graces I receive. The difference is night and day. 3.) There is a prayer that says, "On the cross, only the divinity was hidden, but here also the humanity is hidden." When unbelievers saw Jesus, they saw a man. When outsiders see the Eucharist, they see a wafer. But we know better. 4.) I recommend reading about transubstantiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 20 2004, 03:03 PM'] Woah. Two more in the time I made one small post. [/quote] Thats because we want to "make you" Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Only the Holy Spirit can make you Catholic. It is the spirit that gives life, not the flesh, that is how the waffer of unlevened bread can become Christ. A few verses to consider: [b]John 6:44 [/b] [color=red]No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. [/color] Pray for truth and wisdom. For every minute you spend studying, spend one if not two praying. As for intellectual reason: [b]Malachi 1:11 [/b]For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts. Note it says "from the rising of the sun to its setting". There are Catholic Massess all over the world. 300,000 a day from my understanding. Each one offers that pure grain offering. What other church can match this? [b]1 Corin 10:16 [/b]The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? [b]1 Corin 11:26 [/b]For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. [b]27 [/b]Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. [b]28 [/b]A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. [b]29 [/b]For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. Why would we be eating and drinking judgment on ourselves if we took the Eucharist unworthy if it was not the body and blood? Another point of view would be if it was taught in the beginning, and since Christ said that the Church would be guided in all truth, and since Paul states that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is the Church of the Living God.... How can the real pressence be wrong? Just a few thoughts that I would ask myself if I was in your place. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatPhred Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Eucharistic Adoration is a classic example of development of doctrine. The Eastern Orthodox believe in the Real Presence, but they have been much slower to catch on to the idea of worshipping the Sacred Host. In the Catholic Church, coming to terms with the Protestant Reformation's overall denial of the Real Presence led to the very rapid development of the idea of Eucharistic Adoration. After all, what better way to show that the Sacred Species is really Christ than to worship it? I know you probably have too much to read already but here is another link: [url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/pea/history.htm"]"The History of Eucharistic Adoration: Development of Doctrine in the Catholic Church", by John A. Hardon, S.J.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat_Voluntas_Tua Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 The Real Pressance is hidden just enough so those who do not believe won't see Christ, BUT for those who do believe...well I will just say that after Consecretion there is NO bread or wine on the Altar...It is Flesh and Blood. Also...When I received Holy Communion for the first time (at age 18 this past Jan.) I went up feeling normal...and then I received My Lord. And walking back to my pew I had realized what had just happened...I had eaten Christ's Flesh, and drank His Blood. I started to bawl...I wasn't sure why I was crying...But each tear that rolled off my face assured me that the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ was inside me at that very moment for the first time. It was amazing... What I guess I am saying is that the Real Meat is there...The real meat is before your eyes at Mass. The Eucharist is called a "Mystery of Faith." It is a "mystery" because it is unfathomable...and it is "of Faith" because it is something that you need Faith for (not proof). There would be no reason to have 'Faith' in the Real Pressance if you had mathmatical proof, or scientific proof. "Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe." I would say that if you want to believe in the real pressance of Christ...Spend time infront of the Blessed Sacrament. (Either in Eucharistic Adoration, or Infront of the Tabernacle.) This is how I came to fully believe without a doubt that Christ is present in the Eucharist. Pax et Agape per Maria, andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Another note on: [b]1 Corin 10:16 [/b]The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? If it's participation in the blood and body of Christ - are we crucifying Him again (as I have heard anti-Catholics claim we do)? Here we see Paul say that we are participating in the blood and body. How are we participating if it already happened? (This is probably a better argument for the Sacrifice of the Mass but oh well - it goes hand in hand) Christ's death was once and for all time. That means that the sacrifice of the Mass (participation) that happens at every Mass actually happened in 33 AD. The 33 AD crucifiction of the Lord counts for today and all time. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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