If Tiller Had Been In The Act Of Aborting

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]'late term abortion, cause the mom says she had too many kids'


"Jessica speaks out"

I wanted to say that I was a "patient" if you will of Dr. Tiller back in [2000]. I was married at the time & had just had my [4th] child very recently & had become pregnant again as my husband didn't want to wait. Anyway, we decided having 2 babies under 1 year old was not going to work for us with [5] children total, so after thinking about it we decided upon an abortion though it was painful to think about.

Well unfortunately I chose to use Dr. Tiller. We set up our appointment and this was a late term abortion by the time they got me in. I'm thinking now this was on purpose, its as if he likes doing them later term. I was I believe 26 weeks along which is pretty far in my book, but anyway.

First day was taking blood, sonogram to see exactly how far along I was, etc... which they wouldn't let me see the sonogram photo when I asked. They then gave me the shot into my cervix to insert the laminaria pack, which is the worst pain I have EVER to this day had in my life!! Don't think that was normal. I was then told to go back to the motel room (we were from another town) and be there at 10:00 am the next morning for the abortion.

Well I awoke around 7:00 am and from what I can figure was in FULL BLOWN labor. I was having contractions like I did with my other [4] children while in labor. I was feeling an urge to push even which was very odd, but I was in labor & mostly in pain. My husband FINALLY reached a nurse there (said it was a 24 hr number yet no one answered). They told me it was MY fault and that I was to be at the clinic at 6:00 am... yet the paper they gave me said 10:00 am and I was told 10:00 am.

Anyway... we got to the clinic, they didn't seem to even care that I was in so much pain. They took their time getting my IV in my arm & finally got me some pain medicine. There were about 5 other girls in this room with me (like a small waiting room with beds, etc...) and they all had already had their abortions done. I was last for that part of the morning. I'm guessing because I was farthest along. They all literally looked like zombies just lying there. It was creepy. I was not allowed to have my husband come back to see me or comfort me. Finally it was my turn. I was taken in & given a drug to almost knock me out. It's one where they say you don't remember things, but I do. I can remember Tiller half-delivering my baby, jabbing the scissors into his head, & killing him. Then just kind of throwing him to the side and finishing up.

When leaving there, they don't escort you out or anything. I could barely walk... it was about 2 degrees with lots of snow on the ground and protesters outside pounding on our car as we tried to leave.

The power went out IN THE MIDDLE of my abortion. It was only off about 5 minutes, but how safe does that make you feel? Then my husband was out front freaking out knowing I was back there & of course they wouldn't let him see me, didn't answer his questions or anything.

Anyway I'm sorry to go on. It's very upsetting. The worst part of this ordeal is ever since having this done, I have had NOTHING but problems with my female parts. I have had cervical dysplasia, which is bad cells in your cervix that require many painful treatments. I have pain with sex, which never happened before and just have general hard core cramping on a daily basis. I have doctor statements telling me my abortion caused the problems I now have.

I wanted to share my story. I'm glad your getting the word out about how horrible a man he is. I'm not saying I'm not to blame as well. I chose to do this, but I was told it wouldn't be a bad experience... it would be something that would be easy for me to do & have to go through. But instead, its been nothing but trouble since the day I had it done.[/quote]

Edited January 11, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

the second question is harder for me, cause he's within the confines of the law. if the baby was healthy and normal though, and the mom would be okay, and it just happened to be legal, i'd probably kill him. if the baby had abnormalities etc, i'd probably hesitate and say not sure.
see... unlike most of the people here, i admit to some sympathy to why the doctors and society does what it does, at least in some sitjuations. i don't try to pretend it's all immoral killing tiller, just to shierk my responsibility, even when it's illegal abortions he's doin, and even when i'm not basing my decision on anything reasoned, rational.

Edited January 11, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[thessalonian]

I in good conscience can't answer this poll. I have to leave it to God to judge as it is beyond any ability I normally would excercise to make judgements of right and wrong.. If a baby were one day old and someone was going to kill it I wouldn't hesitate.... What is the difference if it is one day in the womb in reality?
This is clearly the work of the devil. I will be very surprized if tiller is not in hell. Sorry.

Edited January 11, 2011 by thessalonian

[sixpence]

i have now been on phatmass long enough that i can tell a thread is from dairygirl just by the title

[liseski]

no and no

when is it moral to kill anyone?
and I know I am new here, but this poster seems to have a predilection to violence....

[thessalonian]

[quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294778971' post='2199070']
no and no

when is it moral to kill anyone?
and I know I am new here, but this poster seems to have a predilection to violence....
[/quote]

When is it okay to kill? In defense of yourself and in defense of others.....war as well.

[liseski]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1294806176' post='2199243']
When is it okay to kill? In defense of yourself and in defense of others.....war as well.
[/quote]

accepted

[Brother Adam]

I highly doubt it would ever be necessary to kill an abortionist in the process of committing an abortion to stop him from murdering a child. Abortionists seem more interested in money than principles as they close abortion clinics when they are no longer profitable. I highly doubt he would lose his life to finish what he considers a money making medical procedure.

[liseski]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Not all people share the same belief system.
Many people either work in or run those clinics out of a desire to provide women with a safe alternative to back-alley butchers. THOSE are the money-makers who may not care about their "patients".
There have been doctors and nurses shot, killed and/or abused for working in an abortion clinic. Why would one run one under that threat if not for a belief in what they were doing?

I am not discussing whether abortion in murder, here. I am responding to the poster above who dismisses the people that run/work in abortion clinics as being hard-hearted capitalists. Most are pretty passionate about what they do - misguided, or not. There are easier and safer ways for a medical professional to make a lot of cash. Fair is fair.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if you told him yhou'd kill him if he doesn't stop, i'd guess most would stop. but then he's just start doing it again. this is a mockery of truth, to allow that to happen. i'm not sure if this or that definition of 'defense of others' would require you try other means first, but that's not hte point. the point is that he kills people repeatedly and should be killed. as i argued aboev, we shouldnt get stuck on past definitions and expect prepacked definitions for everythying that's truth. that's ridiculous. he should be killed, and if it's only cause he's about to kill that would make you feel better about it, then do it then. i'd do it the same way tiller's killer did, if i weren't a coward, or in a different situation in life. at least i admit it.
as was said, there's no difference when the baby is technically out or in, if it's teh same gestation etc. yet we'd kill when it's out, but not in? only cowardice and people who aren't really as moral as the purport, just charactatures of what they're suppose to believe... could explain all this.

but if you didn't have a good chance to tell him to stop, but could kill him, which seems likely, i would argue that we'd have no option but to kill him then too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i've yet to see a rational response to why anyone would answer 'no' to the first question. just an eery silence or they feel bad about it so wouldn't do it. even if you personally wouldn't though, it should be said that at least it shoudl at least be done.
well, 'try other means first' sure, but those who say that are quick to say they'd kill someone when they are outside the womb. instead of trying to nitpick, see the point. and when that's the consideration, that's where my 'no rational response' criticism comes in.

Edited January 13, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[liseski]

that is what is known as a "Straw Man" fallacy.
I, for one, am not going to try to debate that.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='liseski' timestamp='1294857600' post='2199385']
I don't necessarily agree with that. Not all people share the same belief system.
Many people either work in or run those clinics out of a desire to provide women with a safe alternative to back-alley butchers. THOSE are the money-makers who may not care about their "patients".
There have been doctors and nurses shot, killed and/or abused for working in an abortion clinic. Why would one run one under that threat if not for a belief in what they were doing?

I am not discussing whether abortion in murder, here. I am responding to the poster above who dismisses the people that run/work in abortion clinics as being hard-hearted capitalists. Most are pretty passionate about what they do - misguided, or not. There are easier and safer ways for a medical professional to make a lot of cash. Fair is fair.
[/quote]

Those who are shot typically are not given a choice in the matter and are never in the process of the act of an abortion. And those people who shoot them have lost it - they are murderers and have no excuse. It is not pro-life to shoot someone and justify it by the fact that they kill babies for a living. I realize that many PP employees think they are doing it to provide women with an alternative, but it is still about the money to the organization itself. Chris Pregnancy Centers run in the red all the time - they have very little and keep operating even when they are out of money. Planned Parenthood is all about staying in the black through abortion. You should read Abby Johnson's story "UnPlanned". She left partly because PP may "say" they are doing it to help women, but that is not their priority or their goal. It is the same reason why their doses of birth control are low and their condoms are often defective. They want women to get pregnant so they can get them in where the real money is made - abortion. I am not generalizing many of the staff members who work there, but making a statement about the company itself.

Again, I do not see any situation in which you would have to kill an abortionist to stop him from committing a murder. Yes, lethal measures can be used to defend yourself or the lives of others, but as a last resort when no other means will work. We are also complicated by the fact that abortion is legal in this society, even though when someone else kills a woman's baby than the mother and her doctor it is murder.

[Brother Adam]

Also, it does not have to be true that without Planned Parenthood women would turn to back alley abortions. The government needs to stop promoting abortion and start promoting the same ideals that crisis pregnancy centers do - you are not alone, we are going to help you, and you and your baby are going to be okay. No woman should feel abortion is her only choice, because it never is. That may mean the acceptance that woman will not get to live however she wants, but the responsibility of true love is far more important. Yes, some women may chose to turn to illegal means to kill her baby, but that does not mean that we legalize it. That type of moral argument is just as insane as killing an abortion doctor.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1295043486' post='2200125']
Those who are shot typically are not given a choice in the matter and are never in the process of the act of an abortion. And those people who shoot them have lost it - they are murderers and have no excuse. It is not pro-life to shoot someone and justify it by the fact that they kill babies for a living. I realize that many PP employees think they are doing it to provide women with an alternative, but it is still about the money to the organization itself. Chris Pregnancy Centers run in the red all the time - they have very little and keep operating even when they are out of money. Planned Parenthood is all about staying in the black through abortion. You should read Abby Johnson's story "UnPlanned". She left partly because PP may "say" they are doing it to help women, but that is not their priority or their goal. It is the same reason why their doses of birth control are low and their condoms are often defective. They want women to get pregnant so they can get them in where the real money is made - abortion. I am not generalizing many of the staff members who work there, but making a statement about the company itself.

Again, I do not see any situation in which you would have to kill an abortionist to stop him from committing a murder. [b]Yes, lethal measures can be used to defend yourself or the lives of others, but as a last resort when no other means will work.[/b] We are also complicated by the fact that abortion is legal in this society, even though when someone else kills a woman's baby than the mother and her doctor it is murder.
[/quote]

I get stuck here. If lethal means are acceptable to defend the lives of others, then why can't we use it on abortion doctors? You say as a last resort when no other means will work - what other means are there?

If we say we can change the law I say how does the defense of another depend on what we are doing to change the law?