Lumiere Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1294176230' post='2196645'] Mary and Joseph were the first, so it can be done. I know, I know they are Saints, but still. They gave of eachother fully, even though it was Josephite. They are Saints, they could only give everything. They married from the get-go in virginity, so it can happen. They never consummated with sex, yet their marriage is legit. [/quote] Excuse me, but Jesus had brothers and sisters, Mark 6:2-3, so Mary and Joseph must have had a fully normal marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1294181502' post='2196668'] Excuse me, but Jesus had brothers and sisters, Mark 6:2-3, so Mary and Joseph must have had a fully normal marriage. [/quote] Tradition teaches that Mary remained a Virgin even after the birth of Jesus. The Greek word used in that Gospel is used also to denote cousins and/or step brothers/sisters (perhaps from Joseph's previous marriage?). Anyways. My understanding of a sacramental marriage is that it must be consummated to be, well, a sacramental marriage. It's also my understanding that Mary and Joseph's marriage (nor any other marriage prior to Christ) was 'sacramental', per se. I could be wrong, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1294181502' post='2196668'] Excuse me, but Jesus had brothers and sisters, Mark 6:2-3, so Mary and Joseph must have had a fully normal marriage. [/quote] Jesus did not have brothers and sisters. The term "brother" and "sister" used in the Bible is not synonymous with our modern term "sibling". It refers to a cousin or a close friend. Besides, had Mary not planned to abstain all her life, her question of "How can this be for I know not man?" would have been ridiculous. Why ask how you can possibly have kids, if you plan on someday having sex? Pax et bonum, ~Tally Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) Galatians I 1:19 Mathew 13:55 John 7:1-5 In Mathew 4:18-20, the two brothers Peter and Andrew are referred to, does this actually mean cousins? Edited January 4, 2011 by Lumiere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) The father of James the Greater was Zebedee. The father of James the less was Alphaeus. There was no other apostle named James. Therefore, James could not have been the sibling of Jesus. As was already stated, "brother" and "sister" does not mean "sibling". Quoting the words "brother" and "sister" over and over again will not change that. That said, this is the vocation station and this sub-discussion could be considered off-topic. If you wish to discuss this further, we must go to the debate table. Edited January 4, 2011 by Tally Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1294182914' post='2196677'] Galatians I 1:19 [/quote] Hi Lumiere, This really isn't the place for debate on this subject. If you're concerned about the Church's teaching, I would recommend starting a post in the Debate Corner or Transmundane Lane. I'm sure many folks would be willing to discuss it with you. For now, I think we should focus on JoyfulLife's original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 It is amazing to me that quoting from the bible is considered a debate. Well, Mark 3:31-32 refers to Jesus' family, but in Mark 3:33-35 Jesus states that all who do the will of God are his brothers and sisters. God bless you all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1294186094' post='2196704'] It is amazing to me that quoting from the bible is considered a debate. Well, Mark 3:31-32 refers to Jesus' family, but in Mark 3:33-35 Jesus states that all who do the will of God are his brothers and sisters. God bless you all... [/quote] Lumiere- I'm sorry if I came off as cross or anything. All I meant is that this probably isn't the best thread for that particular discussion, based off of what the original poster intended and in which section of the board we're in. I apologize if I came off as rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Marx Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1294186094' post='2196704'] It is amazing to me that quoting from the bible is considered a debate. [/quote] Typically, making an assertion and backing it up with proof, and continuing with another in a like manner, is considered a debate. Even were it not so, this topic was not to discuss the perpetual virginity of Mary; it was to discuss personal views on Josephite marriages. I would be happy to continue discussing the former topic with you at the debate table. I like swapping Bible quotes and knowledge, myself. Pax! Edited January 5, 2011 by Tally Marx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It's scriptural that the Jesus had brothers and sister, and when he was told his brothers and sister just arrived with Mary and Joseph, he said, they were not his brothers and sisters, but every person who does the will of God was his brothers and sisters! So I believe Joseph and Mary had a regular marriage - not that it matters much actually. Jesus is the only one worth mentioning in this post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294559039' post='2198061'] It's scriptural that the Jesus had brothers and sister, and when he was told his brothers and sister just arrived with Mary and Joseph, he said, they were not his brothers and sisters, but every person who does the will of God was his brothers and sisters! So I believe Joseph and Mary had a regular marriage - not that it matters much actually. Jesus is the only one worth mentioning in this post! [/quote] wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold your mother.' And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." -John 19:26-27 I'd just like to first reiterate the point that "brother" and "sister" referred to any close friend or family member. Our modern usage of the word is not the same. If Jesus had brothers, there would have been no need for John to take Mary into his home. In fact, it would have been extremely offensive for Jesus to deny his so-called brothers the obligation to care for their mother. In Jewish tradition, the husband took care of the wife. When he died, it became the firstborn son's responsibility. If he were to die, it would fall on the next born son. Jesus would not offend his family in such a way. Mary did not have any other children. Jesus did not have any other brothers to pass the responsibility of taking care of Mary to, so he handed her over to John on the Cross. Also, this event can be viewed as Jesus giving Mary to be our spiritual mother as well, in which case we must defend, respect, and care for her. An essential way of caring for her is to respect her purity, virginity, humility, and devotion to Jesus as the Mother of God. I hope that maybe this cleared up some things for you regarding Mary's virginity. Happy Sunday! -Audrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 actually, it could be very possible Mary and Joseph could've "adopted" kids or something...that's not too outrageous to believe... ...we really dont know... ...what we do know is that Mary remained ever Virgin How can the new "Arc of the Covenant" have ever been touched by a man? Ridiculous to even think so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1294589087' post='2198141'] "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold your mother.' And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." -John 19:26-27 I'd just like to first reiterate the point that "brother" and "sister" referred to any close friend or family member. Our modern usage of the word is not the same. If Jesus had brothers, there would have been no need for John to take Mary into his home. In fact, it would have been extremely offensive for Jesus to deny his so-called brothers the obligation to care for their mother. In Jewish tradition, the husband took care of the wife. When he died, it became the firstborn son's responsibility. If he were to die, it would fall on the next born son. Jesus would not offend his family in such a way. Mary did not have any other children. Jesus did not have any other brothers to pass the responsibility of taking care of Mary to, so he handed her over to John on the Cross. Also, this event can be viewed as Jesus giving Mary to be our spiritual mother as well, in which case we must defend, respect, and care for her. An essential way of caring for her is to respect her purity, virginity, humility, and devotion to Jesus as the Mother of God. I hope that maybe this cleared up some things for you regarding Mary's virginity. Happy Sunday! -Audrey [/quote] Thank you for your gracious reply. You live up to your name for sure. I like you reasoning, but I just don't agree with it, so lets agree to disagree for right now. [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1294590837' post='2198147'] actually, it could be very possible Mary and Joseph could've "adopted" kids or something...that's not too outrageous to believe... ...we really dont know... ...what we do know is that Mary remained ever Virgin How can the new "Arc of the Covenant" have ever been touched by a man? Ridiculous to even think so! [/quote] I like this idea, as God is the father to the fatherless. How can be that, unless his people went out and be foster/adoptive parents to children who are orphaned! [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1294587747' post='2198125'] wrong. [/quote] Wow, I thought this was a debate board. The rules of debating including a respectful disagreement of what someone posts, which includes the reasoning why you disagree with them. One word posts saying, Wrong, is like posts saying, you're an idiot. Please take a course on debating and read the book, how to make friends and influence others, I think it would do you a world of good! Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294591603' post='2198151']Wow, I thought this was a debate board. The rules of debating including a respectful disagreement of what someone posts, which includes the reasoning why you disagree with them. One word posts saying, Wrong, is like posts saying, you're an idiot. Please take a course on debating and read the book, how to make friends and influence others, I think it would do you a world of good![/quote] do you think i care what some stranger on a message board says? umm, nope. plus, i don't have time (since i'm a busy wife and mom) to reply to your erroneous belief when so many others in this very thread and many other threads have rebutted your arguments already. you chose not to read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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