"the Privilege Of Being A Woman"

[KnightofChrist]

He uses "wild beast" in other statements or writings. So perhaps we're missing some context of his point?

"We follow the ways of wolves, the habits of tigers: or, rather we are worse than they. To them nature has assigned that they should be thus fed, while God has honoured us with rational speech and a sense of equity. And yet we are become worse than the wild beast." -St. John Chrysostom

[MithLuin]

[quote name='holly.o' timestamp='1294349506' post='2197454']
Animals can only destroy the physical while a person can lead another person astray and destroy their soul. I don't know much about St. John Chrysostom, but that would be my explanation of that statement in the hopes that he didn't just mean it misogynistically.
[/quote]

That was my first thought on reading the quote, too. Meaning...well...you have to have an appropriate historical context to understand quotes, usually. If the goal of life is eternal life, anything that destroys [i]that[/i] is the worst thing evah. Most people throughout Church history take this viewpoint for granted. So that is how you can end up reading St. Peter Damian (whom a pope affectionately nicknamed 'my holy satan') saying that bestiality is a lesser sin than homosexual relations, because in the former you only abuse the animal, whereas in the latter, you are leading someone else into mortal sin and endangering their soul as well. Granted, he was writing many centuries after St. John Crysostom, but it's the same idea -- leading someone astray is worthy of millstones around the neck.


So, yes, women are extremely dangerous because they can lead men astray. That doesn't mean that everything is Eve's fault and all women should pay for that. It means...they (we?) represent a danger to the other sex. It works conversely as well, of course. What in the world is more dangerous to a woman than a man?

Doesn't mean he didn't have any misogynist issues, of course, but I wouldn't judge a single quote that wasn't about that to establish his views of women.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294356296' post='2197484']Oh, I'm not a "male liberationist," but I certainly agree that men should strive to inculcate those fine qualities. But not in a feminine way. I believe that men and women are hardwired in particular ways (both before and after the fall,) and that men and women are complementary. I think each sex must strive to minimize their respective weaknesses, and learn how to emulate the virtues of the other sex, while remaining male and female in their demonstration of these virtues. There are things that each sex can learn from the other, and only when they strive to accomodate each other can the members of each sex truly learn how to be [i]fully[/i] human. I agree with the saying, "Nothing is so strong as true gentleness, nothing so gentle as true strength." It has been attributed to St. Francis De Sales, St. Therese of Lisieux, "the Irish," and a few others, but I never much cared for the "argument from authority." If it's true, it's true, whether Chairman Mao or St. Francis De Sales said it.[/quote] Thank you?

I suspect you may misunderstood what I meant, but I will give this the benefit of the doubt.

[4588686]

I don't see what is mysteriour about the line. He is just following on St. Paul.

[b]1 Timothy 2

[/b] 8: I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9: also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire 10: but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. 11: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12: I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13: For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15: Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.





I don't know much about the subject but on my reading of the subject women were pretty well regarded in Christian culture, as well as Jewish and Islamic, as a source of sexual temptation and sin likely to lead men from the straight and narrow with their feminine charms unless they were kept in check. That began to change around the industrial revolution when more men were brought from the community to work and women became the social backbone in most churches. Around that point the emphasis changed and women were painted as a the moral bastion of the home.

The Bible clearly lays out a patriarchal society. Women should submit to men, wives to their husband. I don't think that can be disputed, at least as far as scripture goes.


[b]Colossians 3

[/b] 18: Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19: Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20: Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21: Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

Women need to submit. We are all spiritually equal before God and men should be good to women but their submissive place in the earthly world seems pretty clear.

It also seems that women are seen as generally a source of sexual temptation to lead men to ruin but particular women can be Holy and godly provided, of course, that they know their place and submit.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294359217' post='2197496']
Thank you?

I suspect you may misunderstood what I meant, but I will give this the benefit of the doubt.
[/quote]

I don't think I misunderstood. Can you rephrase and also explain what you think I misunderstood?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1294359999' post='2197498']
[b]1 Timothy 2

[/b] 8: I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9: also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire 10: but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. 11: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12: I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13: For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15: Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. [/quote]

Yes, this is a firm reminder that women cannot be priests.

Women, who are inclined to experience the richness of sensitivity and compassion towards others, experience these attributes fully through motherhood - whether that be a literal motherhood or a spiritual motherhood. A woman can be "saved" through child-bearing because she is faced with the opportunity to sacrifice everything for her child, the way a man is faced with the opportunity to sacrifice everything for his family. Through these acts we come to understand the purest love possible, the love that Christ Himself showed us by His very act of hanging on the cross.

[quote] [b]Colossians 3[/b]

18: Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19: Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20: Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21: Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. [/quote]

Again, a woman models the sacrificial love of Christ Jesus by allowing her husband to take on the responsibility of the family. That is her sacrifice. A man models the sacrificial love of Christ Jesus by submitting to the needs of his family.

A husband and a wife - with their children - are on their way to a family event. The husband is behind the wheel, and the wife is next to him in the passenger's seat. The children are in the back seat. The husband is in control of the vehicle, if he makes a mistake or if he is not completely aware of the road and other drivers, he puts his entire family in jeopardy. It is his responsibility to keep everyone safe. The wife is in control of where they are going because she has the directions and the map in her hands. Ultimately the husband maneuvers the vehicle, but he maneuvers it according to her instruction. As the husband focuses on the road ahead and is intent on keeping his entire family safe, the wife is in charge of watching the children, making sure that they behave and are in their seat belts. If the children do not listen to her, and act rowdy, things could get dangerous - the wife is too distracted to read the directions, and the husband is too distracted by the noise and rowdiness to focus on the road. She is able to keep a careful eye on them, however, and has enough breathing room to relax because she knows that her husband is taking care of the rest. THAT, my friend, is how the Catholic family functions.

(Editing for typos.)

Edited January 7, 2011 by HisChildForever

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294363429' post='2197508']
n the responsibility of the family. That is her sacrifice. A man models the sacrificial love of Christ Jesus by submitting to the needs of his family.

A husband and a wife - with their children - are on their way to a family event. The husband is behind the wheel, and the wife is next to him in the passenger's seat. The children are in the back seat. The husband is in control of the vehicle, if he makes a mistake or if he is not completely aware of the road and other drivers, he puts his entire family in jeopardy. It is his responsibility to keep everyone safe. The wife is in control of where they are going because she has the directions and the map in her hands. Ultimately the husband maneuvers the vehicle, but he maneuvers it according to her instruction. As the husband focuses on the road ahead and is intent on keeping his entire family safe, the wife is in charge of watching the children, making sure that they behave and are in their seat belts. If the children do not listen to her, and act rowdy, things could get dangerous - the wife is too distracted to read the directions, and the husband is too distracted by the noise and rowdiness to focus on the road. She is able to keep a careful eye on them, however, and has enough breathing room to relax because she knows that her husband is taking care of the rest. THAT, my friend, is how the Catholic family functions.

(Editing for typos.)
[/quote]

You forgot the kids saying, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!" "Mooooom, John Paul isn't staying on hiiiiiis side."

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294364039' post='2197513']
You forgot the kids saying, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!" "Mooooom, John Paul isn't staying on hiiiiiis side."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Well, that would be the "rowdiness" LOL.

[4588686]

I actually just picked up this book by Gail Collins.

America's Women: 400 Years of Dolls, Drudges, Helpmates, and Heroins[b]
[/b]

So far it seems fantastic. I love Gail Collins. She's the only good editorial writer at the New York Times. She's extremely intelligent and consistently witty and amusing and the books seems like it is one of those rare substantive books that reads quickly. It has an interesting thesis about the paradoxical role of women in American society.

"The center of our story is the tension between the yearning to create a home and the urge to get out of it."

"The history of American women is about the fight for freedom, but it's less a war against oppressive men than a struggle to straighten out the perpetually mixed message about women's role that was accepted by almost everybody of both genders"

You might like it. It seems like a non ideological book.. It's not about figure heads of the women's movement or a feminist manifesto, but more a history of the social condition and outlook of women from the whole spectrum of society and hos they lived. Very interesting observations so far.

[HisChildForever]

Thank you for the recommendation, I will definitely look into it.

[tinytherese]

I prefer "The Authentic Catholic Woman,"

"Theology of His/Her Body"

"On the Dignity and Vocation of Women" by Pope John Paul II along with his "Letter to Women"

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294354885' post='2197477']
I don't know why he said that, but it calls to mind a passage in the book [i]The Bridge at Andau[/i], by James Michener, about the Hungarian uprising against the Soviets. One of the AVO (Hungarian-Communist secret police) members, a sadist himself, complained about some of the truly vile, horrible torture methods used by their female torturer. After his complaint, he was called into a room and berated by one of the chiefs of police, who informed him that he had better not complain again, because she was their most effective torturer, with a confession rate far above any of the male torturers. I believe that they were broken more quickly because men naturally expect women to be loving nurturers and healers. It must have completely shattered their hopes and their conception of right order when they saw a woman torturing people, far more than it would have if they had been tortured by a man. And it crushed their spirits like an eggshell.

I believe that while a man has the greater ability to damage and destroy physical things (as men are, I believe, more oriented toward how physical things work) I believe that women (who are more oriented toward relationships among people, emotions, etc.) may have a greater ability to damage and destroy spiritual things. Books are always talking about "the charms, allures, and devices" of a woman, while they are always talking about "the leadership" of a man. I think there is a reason for the tendency to concentrate on those differences. I wouldn't try to justify Chrysostom's statement, but I certainly will not deny that I can understand from whence he may have derived the underlying idea.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Excellent post Stern.


And HCF, I know you are getting over the quote from St. John of Chrysostom here, but don't get hung up on it. I mean, quotes are often take out of context, and the way Alice weaves them in and out of her writing in "Privilege" is a skill, and in some ways a blessing, since for myself she helps break down concepts, theories and her thoughts on this topic.

If you start picking apart a simple quote you will miss the larger picture here. : ) Just a reminder haha.

[HisChildForever]

I finished the book the other day and it was lovely.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294599104' post='2198187']
I finished the book the other day and it was lovely.
[/quote]

Awesome. : )

[HisChildForever]

I was thinking of [url="http://www.amazon.com/Man-Woman-Alice-von-Hildebrand/dp/1932589562/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1294599516&sr=8-3"]this[/url] one next.