"the Privilege Of Being A Woman"

[KnightofChrist]

I went to Barnes and Noble today at lunch hoping to buy the book, wasn't there.

But I got a awesome book that has nothing to do with the topic at all; Heretics by G.K. Chesterton. I think I'll order Alice Von Hildebrand's book and Orthodoxy by Chesterton online after work.

[HisChildForever]

The book arrived this afternoon.

[Lil Red]

that was quick

[HisChildForever]

Amazon is awesome. I ordered online from Barnes and Noble once and because of my experience I will never do so again. I purchased the Joan of Arc movie with Leelee Sobieski and when over a week passed I contacted them (whatever E-mail address was provided) and inevitably found out that my shipment was lost. So they sent another one, by the time I got it it was over a month since I had placed the original order, and the disc was rattling around inside - the plastic that holds it in place was broken.

[HisChildForever]

The author quoted St. John Chrysostom who wrote "among all wild beasts, there is none to be found which is more harmful than the woman". Can someone please explain why a holy Christian man would say such a thing?

[rkwright]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294346935' post='2197441']
The author quoted St. John Chrysostom who wrote "among all wild beasts, there is none to be found which is more harmful than the woman". Can someone please explain why a holy Christian man would say such a thing?
[/quote]

lol you wild beast!!

I dunno even Holy Men are dumb sometimes?

I've heard St. Jerome was often a jerk.

[Mr.Cat]

Christianity has and does have it's issues with misogyny and misanthropy... Hopefully it's something that is getting better with some.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='rkwright' timestamp='1294347226' post='2197444']
lol you wild beast!!

I dunno even Holy Men are dumb sometimes?

I've heard St. Jerome was often a jerk.
[/quote]

>_>

Putting aside the fact that he could have had bad relationships with women or witnessed immoral women in town, the Blessed Mother is so highly esteemed (huge understatement) in the Church, it blows my mind that a holy man (or any Catholic man for that matter) would say such a thing about women.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294346935' post='2197441']
The author quoted St. John Chrysostom who wrote "among all wild beasts, there is none to be found which is more harmful than the woman". Can someone please explain why a holy Christian man would say such a thing?
[/quote]

I take it, Alice doesn't have an explanation for it? Just wondering, since she quoted it...

[holly.o]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294348910' post='2197450']
>_>

Putting aside the fact that he could have had bad relationships with women or witnessed immoral women in town, the Blessed Mother is so highly esteemed (huge understatement) in the Church, it blows my mind that a holy man (or any Catholic man for that matter) would say such a thing about women.
[/quote]

Yeah, some Saints might have had some issues with various things...

But regarding that quote, I thought she went on to explain it through the understanding that women are capable of great good and thus great evil, conversely. Something I can vouch for, and most women who work with a lot of women could probably, too. Think of how we can be mothers and yet also procure abortions. Maybe that is a different section of the book I'm thinking about.... similar to how she explains why women are the "weaker sex."

In my understanding, it's along the lines that those to whom much is given, much is required - we can abuse the gifts God gives us, and if He gives us spiritual, intellectual, emotional, charistmatic, etc. gifts, to misuse those would be to be make oneself more vicious than a hyena. Animals can only destroy the physical while a person can lead another person astray and destroy their soul. I don't know much about St. John Chrysostom, but that would be my explanation of that statement in the hopes that he didn't just mean it misogynistically.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1294349401' post='2197452']
I take it, Alice doesn't have an explanation for it? Just wondering, since she quoted it...
[/quote]

She used it amongst other quotes in the first chapter ("Arguments Against the Privilege of Being a Woman") under the section "Secular Arguments". Interesting to place his quote there, because the second and last section in the first chapter is "Christianity and Arguments Against Privilege". She did not explain the quote, and the quote itself is surrounded by two other quotes; the first from the Torah, against a woman's intelligence, and the second from Luther, who said "women must be used for marriage or for prostitution".

[quote name='holly.o' timestamp='1294349506' post='2197454']
Yeah, some Saints might have had some issues with various things...

But regarding that quote, I thought she went on to explain it through the understanding that women are capable of great good and thus great evil, conversely. Something I can vouch for, and most women who work with a lot of women could probably, too. Think of how we can be mothers and yet also procure abortions. Maybe that is a different section of the book I'm thinking about.... similar to how she explains why women are the "weaker sex."

In my understanding, it's along the lines that those to whom much is given, much is required - we can abuse the gifts God gives us, and if He gives us spiritual, intellectual, emotional, charistmatic, etc. gifts, to misuse those would be to be make oneself more vicious than a hyena. Animals can only destroy the physical while a person can lead another person astray and destroy their soul. I don't know much about St. John Chrysostom, but that would be my explanation of that statement in the hopes that he didn't just mean it misogynistically.
[/quote]

You bring up a great point with abortion, it helps me understand what she meant by - women can either be better than men or worse than men, there is no between for us. Men are capable of murdering their own children, in or out of the womb, but it takes a certain kind of evil for a mother to murder her unborn child - since the child depends solely on her for survival during this precious time.

Yeah I wish I understood the context of the quote, I started to think along the same lines as you. But since the author used the quote as an example of demeaning statements against women, then it was probably used in context and can only be taken as is.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294346935' post='2197441']
The author quoted St. John Chrysostom who wrote "among all wild beasts, there is none to be found which is more harmful than the woman". Can someone please explain why a holy Christian man would say such a thing?
[/quote]

I don't know why he said that, but it calls to mind a passage in the book [i]The Bridge at Andau[/i], by James Michener, about the Hungarian uprising against the Soviets. One of the AVO (Hungarian-Communist secret police) members, a sadist himself, complained about some of the truly vile, horrible torture methods used by their female torturer. After his complaint, he was called into a room and berated by one of the chiefs of police, who informed him that he had better not complain again, because she was their most effective torturer, with a confession rate far above any of the male torturers. I believe that they were broken more quickly because men naturally expect women to be loving nurturers and healers. It must have completely shattered their hopes and their conception of right order when they saw a woman torturing people, far more than it would have if they had been tortured by a man. And it crushed their spirits like an eggshell.

I believe that while a man has the greater ability to damage and destroy physical things (as men are, I believe, more oriented toward how physical things work) I believe that women (who are more oriented toward relationships among people, emotions, etc.) may have a greater ability to damage and destroy spiritual things. Books are always talking about "the charms, allures, and devices" of a woman, while they are always talking about "the leadership" of a man. I think there is a reason for the tendency to concentrate on those differences. I wouldn't try to justify Chrysostom's statement, but I certainly will not deny that I can understand from whence he may have derived the underlying idea.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Mr.Cat]

Sternhauser, you make a curious observation, I'm not sure if I agree but its definitely worth thinking about. But I guess as a male liberationist, I hope for a day when masculinity includes gentleness, generosity, nurturing, sensitivity, patience, and other qualities that don't seem to be there now. Saint Joseph in devotion seems like a good example of this, the Bible doesn't record him ever speaking a word, a quiet gentle man who lovingly sacrificed himself for others.

But your observation may be valid... I will have to think about it more.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1294355607' post='2197480']
Sternhauser, you make a curious observation, I'm not sure if I agree but its definitely worth thinking about. But I guess as a male liberationist, I hope for a day when masculinity includes gentleness, generosity, nurturing, sensitivity, patience, and other qualities that don't seem to be there now. Saint Joseph in devotion seems like a good example of this, the Bible doesn't record him ever speaking a word, a quiet gentle man who lovingly sacrificed himself for others.

But your observation may be valid... I will have to think about it more.
[/quote]

Oh, I'm not a "male liberationist," but I certainly agree that men should strive to inculcate those fine qualities. But not in a feminine way. I believe that men and women are hardwired in particular ways (both before and after the fall,) and that men and women are complementary. I think each sex must strive to minimize their respective weaknesses, and learn how to emulate the virtues of the other sex, while remaining male and female in their demonstration of these virtues. There are things that each sex can learn from the other, and only when they strive to accomodate each other can the members of each sex truly learn how to be [i]fully[/i] human. I agree with the saying, "Nothing is so strong as true gentleness, nothing so gentle as true strength." It has been attributed to St. Francis De Sales, St. Therese of Lisieux, "the Irish," and a few others, but I never much cared for the "argument from authority." If it's true, it's true, whether Chairman Mao or St. Francis De Sales said it.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1294354885' post='2197477']
I don't know why he said that, but it calls to mind a passage in the book [i]The Bridge at Andau[/i], by James Michener, about the Hungarian uprising against the Soviets. One of the AVO (Hungarian-Communist secret police) members, a sadist himself, complained about some of the truly vile, horrible torture methods used by their female torturer. After his complaint, he was called into a room and berated by one of the chiefs of police, who informed him that he had better not complain again, because she was their most effective torturer, with a confession rate far above any of the male torturers. I believe that they were broken more quickly because men naturally expect women to be loving nurturers and healers. It must have completely shattered their hopes and their conception of right order when they saw a woman torturing people, far more than it would have if they had been tortured by a man. And it crushed their spirits like an eggshell.

I believe that while a man has the greater ability to damage and destroy physical things (as men are, I believe, more oriented toward how physical things work) I believe that women (who are more oriented toward relationships among people, emotions, etc.) may have a greater ability to damage and destroy spiritual things. Books are always talking about "the charms, allures, and devices" of a woman, while they are always talking about "the leadership" of a man. I think there is a reason for the tendency to concentrate on those differences. I wouldn't try to justify Chrysostom's statement, but I certainly will not deny that I can understand from whence he may have derived the underlying idea.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, with St. Chrysostom being a Church Father (not to mention a Saint) I feel inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt - and the Church the benefit of the doubt, because anyone who devalues women and womanhood would not be held in high esteem in the Church.